Range Report for H&R Buffalo Classic in .45-70

Started by gitano, March 31, 2005, 08:03:59 AM

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gitano

Cough, cough. Oh excuse me, I was just clearing my throat of BP smoke.
 
Not too long ago, Drinksgin pointed out to me that Walmart sold guns indirectly through their website. Visit their website; pick out the gun you want; print the page; take it to the nearest Walmart store and they would get it for you. Except in Alaska. They still do it in Alaska, but only with "selected" guns, of which, the H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic is not among the "select". Dang!
 
Still, I had a hankerin' for one and at one of the 2 annual gun shows I found a "New Old Stock" Buffalo Classic for even a little less than Walmart wanted.
 
I bought some components, including a mould for casting 405 grain bullets, and got busy loading up BP cartridges. Oh yeah, I also bought some factory 405 cartridges. Since Don instigated this affair, I guess he felt obliged to send me some bullets. I received some of his cast 250 HPs, 350 HPs, 400s and some Postell 500s. I loaded 'em all up, plus some factory-cast 405s from Laser Cast called Silver Bullets, and some of my own cast 405s.
 
The charge data is hardly 'interesting' as it was simply all the Goex FFg I could stuff in the case with an Ox Yoke .45 cal. wad on top. For everything except the Postells, the load was 61.7 grains of Goex FFg on top of 6.75 grains of I4759. I did make some over-powder wads from a tablet back, punched out using a punch made from a cut-off .338 WinMag case. But soon enough, I ran out of cardboard. The load for the 500 Postell was still 6.75 grains of I4759 to start, but I could only get 60.2 grains of FFg above that. These loads were seriously compressed.
 
I "sighted in" at 25 yards, then moved to 100. Frankly, most of the results were disappointing. All of my cast 405s shot poorly, as did Don's 250s, 350s, and 400s. The 405 Silver Bullets, and Don's Postells shot pretty good. The sights complicate matters. The rear is a Williams aperture, and the front is a globe with a post. This is not the best setup for my eyes. I think I would prefer a rear Buckhorn with a simpler front post.
 
Here are the velocities:
 
250 HPs - 1559
 
350 - 1418, 1409, 1412 Mean=1413, St. Dev.=4.6
 
400 HPs - 1298, 1269, 1269 Mean=1279 St. Dev.=
 
405 Silver Bullets - 1348, 1359, 1366, 1351, 1296 Mean=1344, St. Dev.=28
 
My 405s - 1348, 1346, 1395, 1344 Mean=1358, St Dev.=24 (Although the SD for the first 4 was 8 f/s.)
 
500 Postell - 1159
 
Frankly, most of the results were disappointing. My cast 405s, the 250s, 350s and 400s shot about 5-6" at 25 yds. That's 20-24 MOA.
 
My 405s came in four distinct "forms".
1) Sized to .457" and air cooled.
2) Not sized (.461") and the base set in snow.
2) Sized to .457" and the base set in snow.
4) Not sized (.461") and air cooled.
 
These are hollow-based bullets, and I did NOT put any lube or anything else in the hollow. All of my bullets were lubed with "Blue lube". All of Don's were lubed with Liquid Alox. The Silver Bullets were lubed with an unknown "green" lube. All of Don's bullets were gas-checked if I recall correctly (correct me where I'm wrong there Don). My were not, and the Silver bullets have no gas-check and a slight bevel at the base. Hardly a "boat-tail", but a noticable - maybe a 32nd - bevel.
 
At 100 yds, I couldn't hit the 2'x2' target consistently with anything but the Postells and Silver Bullets. I have attached their graphs and associated numbers below.
 
Note that at 100 yds the point of impact was around a foot low with a 25 yd "dead on" zero.
 
I did learn one thing. My normal shot procedure is to take a few regular breaths, let the last one out about half way, hold it, and squeeze the trigger. Normally, immediately after the rifle fires, I take in a big breath. It took me three or four times of sucking in a lungful of BP smoke (there was a very slight - almost imperceptible - breeze in my face) to change my errant ways. Now I lift my head and wait for the smoke to pass before taking a big lungful of air.
 
All the above said, it was an absolute hoot to shoot this rifle! And with these loads/velocities, I could shoot it all day long without beating myself up. I'm hoping I can get it to shoot more precisely than about 4 inches windage and 3 inches elevation at 100 yds. "Good enough" for moose and buffalo I suppose, but not very satisfying. Also, I'm out of "elevation" on the rear Williams sight, so I'll have to do something else to get the point of impact near zero at 100 yds. Also also, I ordered a mould for the Postell. ;) Like the way that 500 grain bullet whacks.
 
One final comment. I shot a few of the "factory" smokeless 405s immediately after I got the rifle. I suspect I'll have most of that box of cartridges for a long time.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

fish

paul: the key to serious accuracy with cast bullets in the handi-derived classic is, according to all the handi and classic 45-70 owners on graybeardoutdoors.com, matching bullet diameter to the bore. i ain't telling you how or what to shoot, just that as a handi owner i spend a lot of time on the handi forum at graybeard. a member from louisiana, i believe, has an article in the archives that lays out the formula for clover-leaf 45-70 cast bullet shooting with black powder. it seems no one has any trouble at all finding a super load with jacketed bullets, whether for a handi or for a classic.

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: gitanoCough, cough. Oh excuse me, I was just clearing my throat of BP smoke.[/size]

I did learn one thing. My normal shot procedure is to take a few regular breaths, let the last one out about half way, hold it, and squeeze the trigger. Normally, immediately after the rifle fires, I take in a big breath. It took me three or four times of sucking in a lungful of BP smoke (there was a very slight - almost imperceptible - breeze in my face) to change my errant ways. Now I lift my head and wait for the smoke to pass before taking a big lungful of air.
I'll bet you looked like a coal miner too.


All the above said, it was an absolute hoot to shoot this rifle! And with these loads/velocities, I could shoot it all day long without beating myself up. I'm hoping I can get it to shoot more precisely than about 4 inches windage and 3 inches elevation at 100 yds. "Good enough" for moose and buffalo I suppose, but not very satisfying. Also, I'm out of "elevation" on the rear Williams sight, so I'll have to do something else to get the point of impact near zero at 100 yds. Also also, I ordered a mould for the Postell. ;) Like the way that 500 grain bullet whacks.
You might look into a 'ladder sight' just for kicks.  Makes for interesting range estimation.


One final comment. I shot a few of the "factory" smokeless 405s immediately after I got the rifle. I suspect I'll have most of that box of cartridges for a long time.

Paul
[/size]

It's always nice to see someone enjoy the pleasure of blackpowder shooting.  It's almost like you can mentally reach out and make contact with past hunters of a bygone age.

Although there was nothing spectacular about the hunts or unique about the way the game succumbed to the lead balls/projectiles...I still remember my first cast bullet deer and flintlock deer from many, many years ago.

gitano

fish,
 
Bullet diameter sounds like a good place to start. The groove diameter on my rifle is right at .458". From all I have read, most BP and ML firearms "prefer" projectiles that are about 0.001" larger than groove diameter. Trouble is, Lee doesn't make a sizer larger than .457". Maybe I can get Don to make me one of his custom sizers in .458" or 459". (Hint Hint :D:D:D I'm not a bit shy about asking for that, as I know Don likes a challenge. :) ). I'll pop over to Graybeard and look for that thread.
 
Jay,
 
I'm looking forward to slaying something with this rifle. Probably it will be a moose. If I get drawn for buffalo I've got another BP rifle in mind for that. ;)
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

Jay Edward (deceased)

Paul,

If the opportunity arises...4759 (up to 29.0 grains) can work pretty well with the 405 grain bullet.  I use 26.0 grains with excellent accuracy.

4831 (up to 60.0 grains) can work very well with the 500 grain bullet.  I've used it and it also shoots pretty darn straight.

Sure wished you lived closer...I can envision a lot of experimentation.

drinksgin (deceased)

With the 500gr, I get 1180avg. with 25gr IMR 4198 from my 22" barrel handi rifle.
I have not yet slugged my barrel, but am sizing .457 and made 5 of the .405's in about 1 1/4" at 50 yds from a rest and with a 2.5x scope.
I shall see about a sizer or two, no big deal, of course, it may be like my .428, took 2 tries, first try came out .429, due to a bit of impatience.
Have 27 and 29 gr 4198 loads ready to try with 500, 30gr 4198 with 405gr and 33 and 35 gr 4198 with the 300gr.
I modify all rifle bullets for gas checks, just seem to shoot better and really clean up better.
Liquid alox and LBT soft blue both work fine for me, so far. I do lube all bullets, even .38 sp swc at 750 fps.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

gitano

QuoteSure wished you lived closer...I can envision a lot of experimentation.

Amen to that friend.
 
I may hafta try that 4831 charge when I get the Postell mould. I'm having so much fun with the BP loads, I hate to have to get 'serious' and go to smokeless. :) I really feel that a major component of my "inaccuracy" is the sights. They may be good for some, but I really have to concentrate to get a consistent sight picture.
 
Don,
 
Will trade caribou jerky for sizers. :D
 
Got back to the range today and shot some different 405 loads. The Silver Bullet still shoots better than my handcasts, but I'm getting closer. I'll post new target and velocity data when I get it processed.
 
Also, HB mentioned something about pictures of the guns for which I'm posting taget data. I'll get to that soon too. :)
 
Paul[/color]
Be nicer than necessary.

Alboy

My most accurate bullet / load combination in my sharps to date is a 340 gr flat nose with 3031.
 
Since this seems to be somewhat of a community effort I will try to get a few of those off to you so you can dial them in also. The pertinate data of mould and powder charge will be in the box.
 
Jay
It won't be long before we see a picture of him with black lips from blowing down barrels.
Alboy
BLACKPOWDER WATERFOWLER
KATY TEXAS PRAIRIE
 
THIS TOO SHALL PASS

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: AlboyJay  It won't be long before we see a picture of him with black lips from blowing down barrels.
[/size]

You've got that right Alboy...and he'll know the taste of it as well.

I've got an interesting memory for you:

Back in the 1980s I was hunting with another buckskinner in Lost Prairie valley West of Kalispell, Montana.  Each night I would drive over to a lodge on a little lake and call home to see what the news was with my regular hunting partner who was guiding hunts in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area.  

One night I phoned home and was told to meet him the next morning near Grass Range.  Back to camp I hied, packed up my kit and hauled my freight to Kalispell.  Grabbed a bite to eat and took off to Grass Range...driving all night.  Slept in the truck (very uncomfortable...I'm over 6' tall) the next morning for about 30 minutes and then met up with him after his night spent in soft bed.  What a rat!  He should of slept on the floor out of sympathy...but hunting partners frequently have a skewed sense of humor.

We took off out onto the plains and split up for the Antelope hunt I'd drawn for.  I hadn't eaten anything as I was so tired and drawn that I just couldn't stomach a bite.  About noon my innards told me different.  But I hadn't packed anything so I was contemplating trying to track down a Sage Grouse for chuck.  I suddenly remembered the little canvas bag with venison jerky I kept in my Possibles Bag.  Sure enough...it was there.

Well I started to eat it when I discovered that patch lubricant had leaked in my bag and had been absorbed by the jerky.  Well...I was so hungry I ate it anyway.

You know what?  I can still taste that jerky after all these years...so much so that I use a different patch lubricant so the smell won't ruin my aim.  Welcome to the lifestyle of blackpowder.

quigleysharps4570

Quote from: gitanoAmen to that friend.
 
I may hafta try that 4831 charge when I get the Postell mould. I'm having so much fun with the BP loads, I hate to have to get 'serious' and go to smokeless.Paul
Some say that smokeless is just a passing fad. :)
For blackpowder velocities, in smokeless mine shoots real well with 5744. My beefed up loads are 3031.

drinksgin (deceased)

Quig;
What rifle are you shooting?
Do you stay to trapdoor loads or move up some?
What are you getting with 3031, or do you have a chrono?
Jay;
Do you have velocity and pressure on the 60gr 4831 load?
I finally slugged my barrel today, as near as I can read the mike,it is .4567, just a little undersize, likely why my .457 sized bullets did ok.
I made me a .4595 sizer today, already sent Paul his yesterday.
Now have to get some loads ready to try out, already have about 30 .457's ready, along with some water dropped .243's to see if I can break the 2300fps limit I found with air cooled bullets.
So many loads, so little time.
Don ;D
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

quigleysharps4570

The 5744 loads are 27grs. and are shot out of the Quigley model Pedersoli. No chrono...been meaning to get one forever, something else always comes up though. Do have a little spare cash right now...what would you recommend? And the price? Here's that Accurate data.
 

drinksgin (deceased)

Quig;
There are several chronos available, I have the Competition Electronics Pro Chrono Pal, there is one model up scale from this , , has a little more calculating power, but all I was after was the velocity and this does me just fine ,Midway has them on sale pretty often, about $95 regular price.
Most of the rest are $200 and up, I would rather put the extra money in shooting supplies.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: drinksginDo you have velocity and pressure on the 60gr 4831 load?
[/size]

I don't have pressure data Don but the book lists the velocity as 1383 fps for a 500 grain bullet.

This use of 4831 is sort of a 'sleeper' type loading.  I really wouldn't have thought of it myslef but I ran across it's mention in an old copy of Reloader Magazine and decided to give it a try.  Well, it turned out to be very accurate and I kept it listed in my records for experimentiation.  I've owned quite a few .45-70s over the years in many rifle types (Trapdoor, '86, Marlin, Highwalls, Sharps) and I was always surprized that 4831 worked so well.  I do have to say that I was hesitant and only tried it once in one of my Trapdoors.

I also found out that it (4831) works well in .22-250 for accuracy loadings.  It will not give the highest velocity but I prefer accuracy to velocity in any event.  This squeezing of the very last foot-per-second out of every cartridge is not my way of reloading.  I prefer to go to different cartridges to get higher velocity than push any specific cartridge to its uttermost bounds.

4759 is one of the original black powder substitutes and I've had remarkable accuracy with it as well...so much so that it is the smokeless powder I use in my .45-70s for hunting purposes.  It's one of those situations where nothing is broke so I don't feel the need to fix it.

gitano

4831 is the powder I remember first using when I started reloading. It has always been a steady performer regardless of what I put it in.... although I have never tried it in the .17. I see it listed for the .45-70 in a few places, but oddly to me, not for 500 grain bullets.
 
I'm curious as to why 4759 is almost twice the cost of other smokeless powders. Up here in AK it costs about $18 for a half-pound can. That's just under the roughly $20 that a full pound of say 4350 or 4831 costs. Besides the crass commercialism of "Because we can get it", does anybody have another reason? Volume isn't it, 'cause there are several powders that don't sell any better than 4759 and they too cost the same "standard" of about $20 per pound.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

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