Recently I applied for some drawing permits in Utah so that I might hunt with my daughter and son-in-law. The short version is that the odds of getting drawn for an elk or deer (bulls and bucks only), is very low for non-residents (me) with no "preference points", (me and my daughter and SIL). The odds are better for muzzle loader hunts than for "any firearm" hunts, so...

While I have been working on building a ML rifle for several years. (Jay Edward gave me the barrel, lock (cap), and trigger group. I bought a chunk of wood and am inletting everything and shaping the stock.) However, that project is not likely to be finished in time for this fall. (Probably won't be drawn for this fall, but you never know.)

The barrel that Jay gave me is a .58 caliber, and I just like big calibers, so I if I got a 'prefab' ML rifle, it was gonna be at least .58 caliber. Looking around, the best buys on ML of .58 caliber and larger is the "Zouave US Model 1863 Rifle". http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_347/rifles-zouave-us-model-1863-zouave-us-model-1863-rifle.html I picked one up for $325 including shipping to my door. It is identical to the Pedersoli, but it was made by Anton Zoli in the '60s and imported by Sears until about 1967. Here's an internet picture of one. I don't have the bayonet.


That's the background.

I took the Zouave (pronounced zhoo ahv) to the range with me the last time I went to work on the Sauer 90 loads http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18930. I brought 3 projectiles:
1) Round ball, (RB),
2) A 'traditional' Lee "Minie" bullet: http://leeprecision.com/mold-575-500-m.html, and
3) Another Lee "Minie" that is basically a hollow-based cylinder: http://leeprecision.com/mold-575-470-m.html

I have some real black powder (BP); some Pyrodex RS, a black powder substitute (BPS), and I bought another pound of BPS made by Alliant that only cost $9/lb at Sportsman's Warehouse. I only took the Pyrodex and Alliant powder to the range, and I only used the Pyrodex.

The rifle is used, and a new type of ML that I am unfamiliar with, so I started with patched RB. The ".58 caliber" RB mold I have throws RBs of wheel-weight alloy (WW) at 0.578" in diameter. (I don't remember the exact weight, but about 280 grains.) I decided that a good "starter" charge would be 65 grains.

Since I had been shooting the Sauer at 100 yds, and I was 'feeling froggy', I decided to just leave the target at 100 yd. If I couldn't hit a target that was essentially 15" x 30" at 100 yd, that was "information" too. I touched off the first round.

Air ball. Hmmm. I had aimed at the lower of the two large bull's eyes and thought that maybe with the light load I had gone low. I reloaded and aimed at the upper large bull's eye.


Its hole is the single hole at about 3 o'clock at the end of the red horizontal bar. So it had dropped about a foot and was about 6" right. Not too bad all things considered. I then loaded the other bullets, and to make it short, "couldn't find paper" at 100 yd, so I decided that since I was "working up a load", I should probably move the target to 50 yd, and did so.

At 50, I went back to the RB and upped the charge to 80 grains. The three-shot group you see to the left of the bull are two RBs and one of the cylindrical bullets. I was kind of fiddling around with patches and charges and shot the next three. Again, two RB and one cylindrical. Here are those three shots:


Then I went to the 500-grain "traditional" Minie. I'd show you those shots, but none of them hit the target ANYWHERE at 50 yd. I didn't waste any more bullets or powder or caps on those. SHEESH!

So after all of this I took the rifle home and cleaned it thoroughly. Afterward, leaving oil in the bore overnight to let it soak in. Then cleaning with clean, dry, patches until all the oil residue was gone. I then fired a cap to "season" the powder chamber.

A few days later, I was wrestling with some BP vs BPS issues and decided to call Alboy and get some expert advice. After that conversation, I decided to:
1) Stick to patched RB for the time being, and get those "on", and
2) Up the charge to 100 grains.

Alboy pointed out that the twist rate of the barrel might well be suited for RB and not "bullets". The range session would certainly suggest that. I haven't measured the twist rate, but I SERIOUSLY doubt there is one full turn in the 33" of the barrel. Alboy thinks it might be 1:48 or 1:60. I don't care much. If it shoots RB to 3 MoA or so at 100 yd, I'll be happy. I'm thinking/hoping that the cylindrical bullet might 'work' because of the inherently stable nature of a cylinder. (You will not Lee's comment that this mold is being discontinued in 2016. Of course. But I already have one and I don't think it's "worn out". )

Today, not being able to resist any longer, I dropped in 100 grains of Alliant's BPS, "Black MZ", put a RB on top of a prelubed patch, rammed the patched ball home, filled a 1 gallon milk jug with water and set it 35 yards from my patio, backed off, and 'let fly'. :D


I was going to aim in the center of the circle, but since it had been shooting low at the range, I thought I'd aim just a tad high. Hit right where I was aiming.

I wasn't expecting the the "explosion". I thought maybe some ripping with essentially a .60 caliber hole. This is pretty powerful medicine. Now it's back to the range to do some shooting at 50, 75, and 100 yd and maybe get some chrono data. I'm liking what I see in one shot.

Paul

Here's a trajectory table for the .58 caliber round ball:


The muzzle velocity is a guess at this point, but if anything I think it might be a little low. I'll get a number the next time I'm at the range.

Not exactly 'awe inspiring' trajectory, but awe-inspiring trajectory isn't expected from these firearms. What is awe inspiring is the 'hammer effect' of these slow-moving, big-caliber, solid lead projectiles. They just flatten game.

The other bullet I am going to try when next at the range is the 440-grain R.E.A.L. (Rifling Engraved At Loading). Here's its trajectory table based on an assumed MV of 1300 f/s.


As you can see, the increased weight and BC contribute to significantly higher down-range energy. Honestly, while my ML experience on game is paltry, what little there has been has demonstrated that these energy values aren't "the end of the story". These large-caliber bullets are "The Hammer of Thor", almost regardless of impact energy.

Anyway, I'm hoping the twist rate of this barrel will stabilize the REAL bullet. If not, I'll go back to the "cylindrical" Minie and keep trying with that. Here's what its trajectory and energy table looks like.


Kind of in between the RB and the REAL, and again, an estimate of MV.

Estimates of the required twist rates to stabilize the REAL and the Cylinder suggest that 1:48 would be fast enough. We'll see. It looked like whatever it actually is, was "good enough" for the Cylinder. I'll have to shoot some more bullets to actually get a good idea about that.

I would note that an old Lyman BLack Powder Reloading manual (1994 edition given to me by Alboy), says that the Zouave has a barrel with a twist rate of 1:72. That could be the reason that the "traditional", 500-grain, Minie didn't shoot very well. If 1:72 is the case, that may explain the poor shooting of the traditional Minie.

Paul

By the way, Al, the 100 grain charge behind the RB blew the hammer back to half-kocked position. Izzat 'normal'?

Paul

Well that answers that question:


But begs another: "Do I care?"

Point of aim was the bottom spot, making the point of impact ~ 6" high at 35 yd. Charge was 95 grains of Alliant BPS.



Clearly not gyroscopically stabilized, but dead on windage-size. Do I really care if it hits sideways or backwards? I think the answer to that will be determined by the groups at 50 and 100 yd. If it remains "on" at those ranges, I think the deciding factor will be the relative precision between the RB and this one. Of course I need to shoot the cylinder with the higher charges too. It appeared NOT to tumble at 50 yd, so I guess it's still in consideration at this point.

Hammer again at half-kock after the shot.

Paul

I'm guessing that the twist rate for this barrel is the 'classic' 1:72. If so, RB is likely to produce the best 'long range' (150 yd) precision.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;143740By the way, Al, the 100 grain charge behind the RB blew the hammer back to half-kocked position. Izzat 'normal'?

Paul

Not in my experience. However a few maybes.

1. I have never even been near a working Zouave

2. You are shooting with Musket Caps, something else I have never used.

Seems an email to Zouave is in order and I will ask among friends in other places.

Quote from: gitano;143740By the way, Al, the 100 grain charge behind the RB blew the hammer back to half-kocked position. Izzat 'normal'?

Paul

Having spoke with the guru Jim Hayney, who I have tried repeatedly to get to join us.

1. Nipple
     A. The hole may be too large causing enough blow back to set the hammer at half-****. Several possible bad things. Too much gas blow back in your face; poor fire transfer to main charge.
     B. Remove and replace. Should be NEVERSEIZED or similar anyway for future replacement. Thompson also makes a lube specifically for BP weapons.
     C. Can be changed to #11 cap or stay with Musket Caps. Musket should work better over all for your application (more fire).
2. Main spring may be too soft.
     Does it have a low force component at nipple. Replacement may be a solution. Original military springs were stout.
3. Patch
     Have you recovered them and are they torn or ripped? They should not be. Indicates need for cleaning of the barrel.
4. Cleaning
     A. With water soluble cleanser (I use Dawn dish soap in boiling water) Feel for roughness and clean until shiney smooth.
     B. Place folded patch/cloth between nipple and hammer to control dribble there. Should see some bubbling and hear air in/out.
     C. Very light oil job.

Before shooting again use dry patches until no oil is evident.

Thanks Al. Appreciate you taking the time to 'ask around'.

I have completed all of the steps 4 a,b,and c, of your list. Removed the barrel. Scrubbed with scalding hot water adn brass brush for HOURS - no joke - until water came out of nipple clear. Allowed 'faux' sperm oil to sit in barrel overnight then swabbed with clean patches until clean and dry of oil. Fired one cap to 'season' and blow out any pockets of oil that might remain.

I have not even looked for patches. I knew about that, just forgot to. I'd go out and look in my yard, but it snowed 14" yesterday and I'm guessing I might have a tough time finding them. I'll look the next time I fire it.

What's your opinion on 'tumbling' projectiles?

Thanks again,
Paul

What's your opinion on 'tumbling' projectiles?
Don't have much useful knowledge. I shoot only RB

Guessing it seems blown skirt on Minnie would contribute or muzzle problems just as in modern rifles?

10 ga RB molds

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-1-Cavity-Bullet-Mold-690-Diameter-Round-Ball-90978-New-/221279640821

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/lee-precision-69-caliber-round-ball-690-diameter-49314-grains-single-cavity-mold-90978-734307909789.do

No skirt on the REAL bullet. Solid. With both the traditional Minie which didn't work, and the cylindrical Minie which did work, the bases were filled with lube. I don't THINK 100 grains would "blow" the skirt, but I'm not that experienced to know. I'm liking RB more and more. 1:72 twist makes that easier!

Paul

I cast some more RB with the primitive mold, (I will post a thread with pics), and they end up at ~0.754, - 0.005". If I drop one in the barrels it 'floats' to the breech. Both barrels are 0.764" at the muzzle. 0.690" seems a bit 'small' to me, but I have read about people shooting 0.500" RB from a .58 cal barrel without "problem". Anyway, I've figured out a way to make the primitive mold throw VERY consistently weighted RB so I'll stick with it for a bit anyway. Thanks for the links.

Paul