A while back, I bought this 16 gauge double barrel shotgun. Both arrels are in fact 16 gauge, but the right one is rifled. ('You' know "how I am" about rifle shotgun combinations.) I hadn't test fired it yet mostly because it represents a bit of a challenge. Here's a look at the right barrel:


The biggest issue is that I know that there is some over-the-counter 16 gauge slug ammo "around", but they sure can't be found up here. That meant that I would have to either make my own or find one. (I don't have a mold and Lee is only selling 12 gauge molds as far as I can tell.) I found one, and actually a pretty good one. It's made in Gualandi in Italy, imported by Ballistic Products, and sold by Midway USA. (With two "middle men" the markup is probably not more than 6 or 7 hundred percent above what the Italians are getting for them.)





I like the "carrier" or integral wad. It means I don't have to find one that 'fits'.

The next challenge was finding some load data for 16 gauge slugs. Not much to be had. Finally, I decided to just do what I always seem to have to do - 'improvise'. The slug and "carrier" weigh exacty one ounce. I figured that if I found a charge for 1 oz of shot, it wouldn't be too different for 1 oz of solid lead. I got an OLD Lee Loader and looked at the charges for a one ounce load. The only one for a powder I had on hand was 21 grains of Unique. So be it.

Next was cases/hulls. I have plenty of 16 gauge plastic hulls, but I wanted to use brass cases. After all, it's really a rifle we're talking about here. I found a source for 16 gauge brass but only Berdan-primed. Sigh. I bought a box and drilled out the Berdan anvil and the pocket fits a 209 just fine. (I had done this for some black powder "shot" cartridges before.)

That wasn't the only problem. While the brass cases fit the chamber, the walls are so thin that the slug-and-carrier 'rattle around' in it. So... I got out the plastic hulls and tried them. Again, the hulls fit the chamber well, but this time, the plastic walls are so thick that the slug-and-carrier only fit with substantial elbow grease. Oy!

I decided to 'enlarge' the slug-and-carrier (S&C) by essentially making it a "paper patched" bullet. I wrapped a square of TP around the S&C and it now fits tightly in the brass case. Here's what it looks like "patched". I also use a fiber wad beneath it to get the length of the "shot column" correct for the brass case.


However, I am quite certain that if I found the need to fire the left barrel (shot) first, without some form of crimp, the recoil would move the S&C out of the brass case. That's not 'good'. The Lee Loader allows me to put a nice crimp on the brass case. Here's what the first loaded rounds look like.


The slug mics at 0.669" +- 0.002". The muzzle mics at 0.645" x 0.665", so there's some "squeezing" goin' on. Finally, it was time to test fire these rounds.

I loaded up four of each of the "paper-patched" brass cartridges, and four of the plastic ones. Again, the charge was 21 grains of Unique for both of them. I took the piece 'out back' behind the garage and set the target at 15 paces. I can get 25 yds back there but I didn't feel that was necessary for this exercise.

The sights on the gun look like this:


I haven't measured it, but I think there is a little 'cast off' on this piece's butt. That's fine by me. See for yourself and let me know what you think.






So I fired the brass cases first, then the plastic ones. Here is the resulting 'target'. The brass cases are above to the holes that they produced, and the plastic ones to the right of the holes they produced.


You'll notice the ragged holes produced by the "paper-patched", brass-cased shots. I think that might be due to the fiber wad still being 'attached' or right behind the S&C. The plastic-cased ones are sharply defined. I'm "fine" with these"groups". The one upper 'flier' was the first out so I suppose that's the cause of that. The "groups aren't bad for a "two bead" shotgun sight, even if it was only 15 yards. The "lowness" (the first shot hit the point of aim exactly) is difficult to assess. I'll have to look at the elevation at 50 and 100 yds.

The biggest difference in the two cases was felt recoil. The brass cases were "pleasant" to shoot. The plastic one's recoiled "smartly". Not "bad", but those are not loads for "boys". It's clear that the tight fit of the plastic case imparts some increased velocity. I didn't set up my chronograph because I wasn't particularly interested in checking velocity. I was just checking "safe" firing and "grouping". However, given the very real difference in recoil between the two cases, I will be measuring MV. Probably not 'til next week. I'll post here when I have that info.

Paul

Gitano,

        Very nice too :D looks like you need to turn up some brass cases to fit the slugs so you can dispence with the paper patching. Hmmm and a fold down cape sight...... . A few years back I was shown a very nice  P. Webley Dbl SxS with a set of shotgun barrels (12b) and two sets of 12b rifles barrels. one set was pitted. the stock had been splice to comb and underneath which I was told was to repair damage down by "Wait a bit thorns" whilst on horse back chasing Giraffe.

Sadly we could not come to what I considered a reasonable price when it's condition was taken into account. one day I will get a dbl rifle....................................... one day.

Quotelooks like you need to turn up some brass cases to fit the slugs so you can dispence with the paper patching.

Not a bad idea BH, but it sure sounds like the "hard way" to do "it".

Quoteone day I will get a dbl rifle

You and me both.

Paul

Paul,
 
how about you give us some info on the vintage and brand of the gun.  It really looks like a nice piece, but from the style not of "Cape gun vintage".
 
I agree with you that the stock has some cast off.
 
The second trigger on the gun appears from the picture to be very far back, almost against the trigger guard.  Does it feel uncomfortable when when you change triggers?
 
The bead in the middle of the bbl is interesting.  I know that Krieghoff has this arrangement on their shotguns but I thought that it was a "new" invention, I find it interesting to see it on an "old" gun.
 
Must say this really seems like a nice project.
 
C

Interesting project and piece!

I have a Husqvarna bolt action in 8mm that has about that same amount of cast off.  Looks odd, but for a right-hander it comes to the shoulder easily and my eye falls right on the sights.

Nels

C,

I can't help with the "vintage, but the "brand" is a "Robust". The lump has "No. 12" on it. (Look in the photos of the underside of the receiver above.)

I checked for cast off, none. Must be a photographic illusion.

QuoteDoes it feel uncomfortable when when you change triggers?

I don't have enough experience with it yet to notice anything one way or the other. To date, I've only shot the right barrel.

It doesn't actually seem to be a "Cape Gun" in the truest sense of the phrase. The right barrel isn't really a "rifle" in a "rifle" chambering or caliber. However, that term is the easiest way to quickly describe it.

Someone from England (not Brithunter) pointed out that the right barrel, shooting shot, would be 'good' for rabbits or squirrels in close quarters. I am sufficiently intrigued that I think I will pattern it with 7.5 shot.

I've got quite a few pictures of the 'proof marks'. When I find them, I'll post them.

Paul

By the way, I have NO idea what the problem with your "login" is. I don't know how to get it rectified. Since no one else is having that experience, could it be your internet service provider (ISP)?

Paul

Sorry Nels, I wasn't ignoring you, I was posting as you were.

Even when I look at it, (as opposed to hte photographs), it appears to have some cast off. However, when I run a straight edge from muzzle to butt, it lines up right on th centerline of the butt.

As to 'coming to eye', it doesn't with respect to the two beads lining up. I think I could use a little cast off.

Paul

First, I'm a little embarrassed to note that I posted on this piece when I first got it. Look here for the 'proof marks'.

http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14111&highlight=Boar&page=3

Paul

:grin: Paul that is one nice looking 16 ga......... when i use paper hull shot shell out of an old savage it seems the is pattern better than plastic....... Ron

Thanks, Ron.

I don't know of a source of paper 16 ga hulls. If you do, would you mind sending it to me? I suspect a paper hull wouldn't squeeze the plastic wad so much.

Paul

I got the chronograph out today and checked the the muzzle velocities at 5 feet.

For the brass 'paper-patched' cartridge the average MV was 925 f/s.
For the plastic-hulled loads, the average velocity was 1295 f/s.

I think 925 f/s is a bit too anemic for my tastes. On the other hand, 1300 f/s is a 'nice', 'reasonable' MV for what use I would likely apply this arm. The muzzle energy for a 1 ounce projectile doing ~1300 f/s is ~1700 ft-lbs. The same projectile doing ~925 f/s generates ~855 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

I don't know the ballistic coefficient for these projectiles, but for ranges out to 100 yds or so, BC doesn't matter too much. I won't be trying to shoot a grouse's head off at 100 yds with this arm.

Paul

My BC calculator estimates the BC at 0.110. That seems like it's in the ballpark as the calculator predicts a BC of 0.089 for a 16 ga round ball, and I know that is the BC of most round lead balls.

QuickLOad predicts that at a MV of 1300 f/s, a BC of .110 and the bead sights, the slug will carry 1000 ft-lbs out to 100 yds and will be just over 6" low there, if dead on at 50 yards.

Paul

Paul I've been getting my paper hull's from  www.rstshells.com  they  do have 16's in 2 1/2...........Ron

Ron, I called RST this morning, and they told me they didn't sell components. Unfortunately, living in Alaska makes buying ammunition through the mail prohibitively expensive due to "Hazardous Materials" fees.

Thanks nonetheless,
Paul

Paul.........you may get lucky with www.grafs.com sorry 'bout the wasted call..........Ron

OBTW....... I called ..........they have primed.........16 ga's paper or plastic hull's........ also have primed brass hull's

"No sweat, GI."

I'm going to try Ballistic Products too. Maybe they have some paper 16 ga hulls.

Thanks,
Paul