I've always considered the Russian Mosin Nagant action too ugly to warrant making a custom gun out of. I don't particularly care for actions that have magazines that extend below the wood. In my opinion they lack elegance, both esthetically and from design perspective. In addition, the workmanship of MNs is generally poor compared to almost any other action. The Finns have dressed up the MN action considerably with their M-39. Still, cosmetically speaking, I consider their improvements hardly more than lipstick on a pig. Crowkiller, a new member from Finland, has just posted some pictures of a custom MN with a thumbhole stock on it. As a result, my opinion regarding the MN requires some "adjustment". :) Don't get me wrong, I still consider the MN action a mere shadow of something like a Mauser, but I can see some potential. My wife's eye's start rolling whenever she hears me say, "I can see some potential." So here's the story...
 
I was in my tree fort (AKA 'gun room'), licking my wounds over the struggles I'm having getting the .22/.30-30-chambered Martini Enfield converted to something I like more. Also, my mind was in a bit of a rut, as I have been trying to figure out how to put a handfull of k-98 take-off bbls to good use. (Discounting LLANOJOHN's suggestion of "tomato stakes". ) I've got several mauser actions, and these take-offs just laying around doing nothing. Just putting them back together as 8x57s was far too boring an idea. Also, the bores of the take-offs weren't exactly what you'd call 'pristine'. Boring them out to the .330" of the 8x56R Steyr or .338" and using the Steyr case was appealing, but then the mauser actions would have to be modified severely - way more severely than I cared for. Dang!
 
I was fresh from reading Crowkiller's posts, but I wasn't really interested in a rifle chambered in 7.62x54R. Too much like an '06, especially in light of the fact that it is often referred to as the "Russian '06". That simply wouldn't 'do' as a chambering for me. I was just gazing into space as it were, when my eye wandered over several 91/30 MNs I had left over from a group purchase of "U-Fix-Ums" from CIA. They were in very poor condition, (they only cost $10 apiece), both in metal and wood. Two however, had hex receivers, with salvageable metal. As I looked at them, it occurred to me that the MN actions would take the 8x56R case without the need for ANY modification. I perked up considerably.
 
I took one of the hex receivers out of the rack and gave it a look. The barrel, as best I could tell, was in good condition, so I removed the barreled action from the stock. One of the things I liked about the 91/30, as opposed say to the M-38 MN, was that it had a 28.375" bbl. If I was going to have a custom rifle made, I wanted all the bbl length I could get to start with.
 
My idea now was to have the existing bbl rebored to .338, (so I could have access to the wider selection of .338 bullets), and just neck the 8x56R cases up. I got out my calipers to measure the bbl to see if it had enough 'meat' on it to allow the rebore to .338. Sho'nuff, it did. By now, I'm beginning to get a grin on my face. Things are definitely looking up. I think this might actually be a "go".
 
Costs would go something like this:
 
Rebore and rechamber - $265
New reamer (.338x56R) - $150-ish
New Stock - more than $50 less than $100 (only rough inlet for action - from Great American Gunstocks)
Shipping charges not included.
 
In total, assuming $75 for the stock, $490. Various and sundry "add ons" will bring the total up in the vicinity of $600, and that's not considering 'glass'.
 
So, what do I get for $600? A reasonable way to salvage some nasty 91/30 MNs. A custom rifle in .338 caliber. And... an overall good time working up load data for it. Based on the success we've seen with John's .338 MAI, I think this might just be "a live one".
 
In a phoncon with HB, he suggested that considering how difficult it is to get 8x56R brass, I might instead consider the 7.62x54R case as the parent. The concept is good, but the 7.62x54R case has considerably less capacity than the 8x56R or the .338x56R. Even if I chamber the rifle for a 8x56R-based cartridge, 7.62x54R cases can always be used in a pinch, just the same way they are now used for the 8x56R.
 
Whatchyalthink?
 
Paul

Whau, you guys are really serious, I have read about all the "smithing" and I will remove that from my presentation, I´m just a weasel in the prarie grass compared to you all, hats off.

Paul;
Do you ever suspect your wife would like you to get a steady job, involving at least 60 hours a week, so you would not have so much time to think up these things?

Sounds good to me. As soon as Grafs gets some brass in stock I would buy a boat load for both your Steyrs and your new toy.

I KNEW IT!............I KNEW IT!...............I KNEW IT!
 
I was sitting out in front of the ranch house about sundown the other day and said to myself..........."self.. ...the WINTER SOLSTICE has passed, each day brings more hours of sunlight to my amigo, Paul, up in the snows of Aleyska. He tends to get a bit disgruntled and crabby as the days get shorter but after the days become longer...........a changed man!" I wonder what he is up to..... .

...........................................................................................................

Now what I know or even perceive about the Mosin-Nagant and its variants, you can put in a thimble and lots of room left over..... . I did a quick check on case capacity between the 8x56R and our "little sweetie" and its about 6-7 grains on the plus side in favor of the 8x56R. Purty good sized boiler-room, my friend.:D Even a little more if you neck it to .338. Now how about some pics of the hexagonal action (side, top & bottom), stock bedding area, and the barrel...is it a stepped barrel like the Mauser militaries? Your thoughts on barrel length...24" or 26"?

Like you I was "blown away" with the pic of the MN that Crowkiller posted. First tiime I saw something that looked pretty decent! Please continue on with your current thought processes!............DATS-WHAT-I=TINK!!;)

Ol' John.......:)

PS......I think also dem good electrons from the Aurora Borealis shot thru yore noggin..........:D Here is a pic...!

Quote from: crowkillerWhau, you guys are really serious, I have read about all the "smithing" and I will remove that from my presentation, I´m just a weasel in the prarie grass compared to you all, hats off.

Oh no! you don't get away that lightly!!!!:frown Put yore hat back on!!  You are in for a nickle so you are in for a $dollar$, my new amigo in Finland!! So settle back and offer your advice and observations to the group....:D
 
Welcome aboard! Its alway a fun ride!
 
Ol' John..:D

Quote from: crowkillerI´m just a weasel in the prarie grass compared to you all...

Well, I can talk a good game Crowkiller, but talk's cheap. You're right about some of the other fellows here though. As far as being "a weasel in the prairie grass", just hang around a while and more likely than not, you'll get "infected". It's an incurable disease, and shortly after infection you'll be looking for a local gunsmith to help you with some hare-brained idea you got from The Hunter's Life. Speakin' of gettin' infected:cool: ... I was thinkin' that this might be highly like-able wildcat in Finland. Just think about all those MN actions over there. This cartridge would be some pretty serious moose medicine, and those Sako-rebuilt MNs should be pretty easy to come by in your neck o' the woods. Wouldn't want to get you thinkin' or anything.  :D
 
I'll post some pics John, but you can get a look at a nice-looking hex receiver on Crowkiller's thread.
 
Have I been a little cranky lately? :)
 
I hate the dark.
 
Paul

Paul, you are sick.  I could use 2 Mauser actions for two very worthwile projects. PM me if you want to sell them. Regards, Rick.

Ok, her are some pics of MN 91/30s. First are the 2 ratty ones and various close-ups.

Paul

Here is a nice 91-30 and a Sako re-arsenaled M-39, wiht some associated close-ups.

Paul

And here are some close-ups of the ratty action, but it shows the simplicity of the MN action. I doubt a simpler design could be implemented. A practical design for a battlefield arm.
 
Paul

Very nice m-39. How does it shoot?

The M39s shoot "scary" good. They and the Swede M96s shoot amazingly well for being military surplus rifles with open sights. As well as they shoot, the Soviet 7.62x54Rs (M38s, M45s, etc.) shoot poorly. I think it was mostly just poor maintenance that makes Soviet stuff such garbage at the range.
 
Paul

OK... got to looking at the x54R case vs the x56R case and there are some interesting/complicating results. Attached you will see some pictures. The first one shows two cartridges with a bullet between them. The bullet is a .338 Hornady 225 grain Spitzer. The cartridge on the left is a 7.62x54R case fireformed in an 8x56R Chamber; neck sized to .338, and the bullet seated to the same OAL as the milsurp 3.005". The cartridge on the right is a fireformed 8x56R necked up to .338 and the bullet seated to the same 3.005". The bullet between them show how deep the bullet reaches into to case. Of course, seating both bullets to the same depth eliminates any differences in case capacity due to seating depth. However, there's more to the story. (Isn't there always. )
 
Each of these cases is a "dummy" in that they have no primers or powder. So, I thought I'd check the case capacities with the bullets loaded. I could do this by putting the powder in through the flash-hole. I almost always use Bl-(C)2 powder for measuring case capacities, because 1) it flows like water, and 2) it leaves less "air". In this situation it would flow through the flash-hole easily. I expected the two capacities to be very close. My expectations were not met.
 
The x54R case capacity - with the loaded 225 - was 69.0 grains. The case capacity of the x56R - with the loaded 225 - was 66.4 grains. A full 2.6 grains less than the x54R case! At first, I thought I had made a measurement error, then I remembered that one of the reasons I 'like' the x56R case is because it is so 'beefy'. Apparently, its 'beef' was reducing it's capacity.
 
So, have a look at the next picture. It is of a cross section of the heads of the two cases, with the 8x56R on the left. The differences aren't great, but they are there for sure. I measured the case walls at the uppermost cut. The x54R wall is 15 thousandths thick, the x56R 20 thousandths. So, all together, the differences in construction lead to something approaching a 5% difference in case capacity. So... my question to you is:
 
Would you rather have the extra case capacity of the x54R case, or the greater strength of the x56R case?
 
AND
 
What about the substantially shorter neck of the x54R case?
 
The neck-length of the 8x56R is 0.300" or almost one caliber (.330"). The neck-length of the blown out 7.62x54R case is 0.145", less than half the x56R case neck length. Keep in mind that the charge predicted by Load From a Disk for the 2797 velocity for the 225 Hornady in the .338x56R is 57.8 grains. Even for the 160 grain Barnes doing 3244, it's only 64.2.

Which would you use?

Paul

I would prefer the 8X56R except for one thing, availability of brass. You know how hard is is lately to find 8X56R brass that doesn't cost an arm, a leg and your first born child! I don't think that the neck length of the 54mm case is an issue. Look at how short the neck is on the 300 Win Mag. But I like the looks of the 56mm case. It has nice lines like a 300 H&H.