More Martini Questions for Jay

Started by kombi1976, August 21, 2005, 03:08:32 AM

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kombi1976

Here's a couple of questions for the guru himself:
 
Will the 6.5x50R Japanese cartridge fit into a Martini Cadet?
I realise it's longer even than the 375 Maximum but the small calibre and the fact that it isn't straightwall with a decent shoulder should mean it fits.
The diameter shouldn't be to big either....I think?
 
And will a 9.3x74R slide into a large frame Martini?
 
What do you reckon Jay?
Cheers & God Bless
22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


Jay Edward (deceased)

Just found this thread kombi...sorry it took so long.  My little trip forced me out of the loop and I got behind on threads.

"Will the 6.5x50R Japanese cartridge fit into a Martini Cadet?"
According to the book the action will handle up to the length of the .25-35 cartridge...because of the taper, I reckon.

"And will a 9.3x74R slide into a large frame Martini?"
The book says it will take up to a .45-90 cartridge.

The problem is, for each action, I would have to have the chambered barrel installed to get a good look at the angle of attack.  Obviously the tapered cartridges have an advantage here but when it's going to be close...well, I'd hate to put money on it.

The thread OD on the larger Matini is 1" (not to the bottom of the threads) but the wall thickness and design of the action is sufficient.  Witness that it was chambered in .303 British (using Cordite) and hunted with in tropical temperatures.  Of course it may make a difference in the gunsmith you use...a machinist fit on the threads would be in order when it's really close.  The thread OD on the Cadet is .750" for comarison using the 6.5 cartidge.  Then there is the little matter of the extractor (double).  Rim diameter and the consequent opening up of the extractor might make it too weak to extract correctly.  Since the bolt face would not be rebated, the full depth of the rim (thickness) has to be taken into consideration.  And if you insist on modern cartridges you're going to have to bush the firing pin hole too, you know.  

Now why are you fooling around with the 6.5x50R cartridge in the Cadet?  

kombi1976

Quote from: Jay Edward"Will the 6.5x50R Japanese cartridge fit into a Martini Cadet?"
According to the book the action will handle up to the length of the .25-35 cartridge...because of the taper, I reckon.
The thread OD on the Cadet is .750" for comarison using the 6.5 cartidge. Then there is the little matter of the extractor (double). Rim diameter and the consequent opening up of the extractor might make it too weak to extract correctly. Since the bolt face would not be rebated, the full depth of the rim (thickness) has to be taken into consideration. And if you insist on modern cartridges you're going to have to bush the firing pin hole too, you know.
So I guess the answer to the first question is maybe, but what's the point.:(
Am I correct?
The 25-35 is quite interesting though.
 
Quote from: Jay EdwardNow why are you fooling around with the 6.5x50R cartridge in the Cadet?
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Just dreaming I guess.:rolleyes:
Cadet actions aren't that hard to come by here.
Finding a rifle cartridge with thump that'll fit in them is another thing altogether though.
Either there's pistol cartridges, or cartridges with an effective point blank range of around 150m, or, most often, both.
.22 Hornet and .218 Bee aren't too bad but they're varmint cartridges.
Give me a list of smaller rimmed rifle rounds like the 6.5x50R that would fit and I'll be very interested.
7x33 Sako would've been perfect but it's rimless and rare.
No such thing as a 25-20 Improved, is there?
BTW, why do you have to bush the firing pin hole?
 
Quote from: Jay Edward"And will a 9.3x74R slide into a large frame Martini?"
The book says it will take up to a .45-90 cartridge.
 The problem is, for each action, I would have to have the chambered barrel installed to get a good look at the angle of attack. Obviously the tapered cartridges have an advantage here but when it's going to be close...well, I'd hate to put money on it.
The thread OD on the larger Matini is 1" (not to the bottom of the threads) but the wall thickness and design of the action is sufficient. Witness that it was chambered in .303 British (using Cordite) and hunted with in tropical temperatures. Of course it may make a difference in the gunsmith you use...a machinist fit on the threads would be in order when it's really close.
Still not sure if your answer on this was yes or no......:confused:
Is the 9.3x74R longer than 45-70 or not?
It does taper much more significantly than the 45-70 and it also would use a spitzer style bullet rather than the flatpoint or rather blunt RNs that are usually used for 45-70.
I guess I thought this would be a very appropriate cartridge as it operates at lower pressures.
In a Martini it'd almost be as much fun as a double rifle....almost.;)
Cheers & God Bless
22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


Brithunter

Hi Konbi,
 
      Now I dare to ask this but have you considered the old 30-30 Winchester cartridge? in a single shot you can use spitzer bullets and so increase it's effective range especially with the 125-130 grn ones and it's also available as in improved cartridge ;)  You should be able to quite easily get 2800fps with the 130 Grn bullets especially with the improved cartridge.
Go Get them Floyd!

Fortunate Son

Kombi
 
Your proposed project sounds interesting.  I couldn't help but not your comment: "The 25-35 is quite interesting though."  Depending on what you want to use it for, it could be very interesting.  
 
I have never worked with a Martini action, but awhile back I had an old drilling re-lined and re-chambered to 25-35 and I am extremely pleased with it.  With the solid closed breach on the drilling and it being a single shot, I can load just about any type bullet I want.  I got it back just shortly before the close of deer season last year and was not able to work up an improved loading.  But, with the minimum load I started with I took a two year old whitetail buck at about 75 yards with one shot.  I did have to track him a short way and finish him off with a 22 but the load was the minimum listed and used a flat nosed 117 grain.  
 
The round is very mild to shoot and quite accurate.  With proper hand loading I think it has great potential.  It is also available in Europe so brass, etc. should not be too difficult to come by.  And, from Jay's comments it looks like it would work in the Martini action.  Very interesting indeed.
Mike In MS
NRA For Life
Army For 30

kombi1976

To answer you question, Mike, the 25-35 does interest me and I have thought about having the 25-20 rechambered to it but there is one primary concern that I have, plus a couple of secondary ones.
25-35 uses 117gn FPs but if I have a single shot I'd really like to be able to use 117gn spitzers.
Keeping this in mind it all boils down to rifling twist.
I'm unsure that the twist in the 25-20 barrel would be capable of stabilising the heavier bullets facilitated by the 25-35. :(
In addition 25-20 cases are fairly easy to come by but 25-35 are less easy as are dies......at least here in Oz.
There's also the possible need to alter the extractor.
I guess I'm looking for something a little different that'll sit in between my present regime but can be chambered in a Martini.
I have 2 .22lrs.
Then there's the 25-20 which removes the need for a small game/predator rifle like one of these new-fangled .224 or .17 cal cartridges.
I also have my 303/25 which prods buttock on a 25/35 but won't stabilise anything above 100gn bullets.
Then a leap away is the 8x57 which'll thump anything short of a brown bear or a buff, and they're way up north.
Since we only have teddy or koala bears here I feel safe.:rolleyes:
A large frame Martini is the easy way out but I can't help but think there may be another easier way. :mad:
That and large frames aren't cheap......think at least $350 for the action alone.
Plus, I could be using it to build a 9.3x74R. :D
I guess what I'm looking for is a decent modern rifle cartridge(preferably metric) with available brass and dies that'll still fit in a Cadet.
Call me picky.....many have before.
I do think 6.5 or 7mm would make a lovely pick though.
C'mon, Hondo, isn't there ONE rimmed 6.5 you know of that would suit????? :confused:
Cheers & God Bless
22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


Jay Edward (deceased)

According to the book (COTW) the 9.3x74R is some .75 (3/4) of an inch longer than the .45-90 (depending on the loading).  My answer is 'no' based upon this information.  The 9.3x74R is somewhat like the .375 H&H to my way of thinking and I would not attempt that chambering.  This problem is why double and single break actions were so popular.  Falling blocks (again, depending on design) facilitated the long cartridges as well.

As far as the availability of the .25-35 Win is concerned...if it is still available in Europe (or Oz), the 6.5x52Rmm cartridge is essentially the same cartridge.  This might be an option.

OK...so you opt to dink around with the .25-35 or the 6.5x52Rmm cartridge, the problem with using the heavier bullets simply requires a different twist.  After all, you would be building a custom rifle...why not a custom barrel with a unique twist?  If the action be robust enough then you can put a little pepper on its tail and get it to scream out to whatever critter is unfortunate enough to cross your path.

To tell you the truth, if I were to get passionate about 'filling in' that portion of the battery, I would try to seek out a Number 3 Ruger action and eliminate the problems with the Cadet.  If I had a Cadet action and wanted a zippy little number...I would opt for the 218 Bee.

So, let's mortgage that house Kombi and get cracking on these projects.:D

drinksgin (deceased)

Kombi;
If you want to get4-600fps more than the .25-20, the .256 Win. will do that, should be an easy rechamber, set the barrel back one thread and ream, may get by with just reaming, as is.
The case is the .357 mag. necked down, Hornady and Redding both have die sets.
Plenty short, rimmed and should be cheap to reload, if the .357 case is available.
.25-35 and the AI version are easily made from .30-30 brass, may have to inside ream the neck slightly.
Really are not a lot of medium range , rimmed cases to choose from.
A few very old metrics, that would require a lot of rework and would hardly be worth messing with.
A 6.5 possibility would be the 6.5x53R Dutch, case can be made from the .303Brit, but finding a reamer likely would be a job.
Hope you find something that suits your needs.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Fortunate Son

Sounds like the 25-35 and/or 6.5x52R fits right in there.  I use them both in the old drilling.  Don't know how you could determine if the present twist rate would stablizize the heavier bullet (?).  And, as Don points out, there is plenty of 30-30 brass available.  As for dies, today on E-Bay I saw at least three sets of 25-35 dies at very reasonable prices.  There is not a great demand for them...
Mike In MS
NRA For Life
Army For 30

Fortunate Son

Sounds like the 25-35 and/or 6.5x52R fits right in there.  I use them both in the old drilling.  Don't know how you could determine if the present twist rate would stablizize the heavier bullet (?).  And, as Don points out, there is plenty of 30-30 brass available.  As for dies, today on E-Bay I saw at least three sets of 25-35 dies at very reasonable prices.  There is not a great demand for them...
Mike In MS
NRA For Life
Army For 30

gitano

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I also have my 303/25 which prods buttock on a 25/35 but won't stabilise anything above 100gn bullets.
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Quote[/size][/font][/color]
I'm unsure that the twist in the 25-20 barrel would be capable of stabilising the heavier bullets facilitated by the 25-35.
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OK... I've read all of this a couple of times to make sure I'm "on the same page". I'm not sure I am, but I'll proceed and yous can correct me where I'm off.
 

 
1) Kombi has all the .22s he wants.
 
2) Kombi has a .303/.25 that "won't stabilize anything over 100 grains", and only comes "up" to ("prods buttocks") the 25-35.
 
3) Kombi has a Martini Cadet rifle in 25-20 that he would like to chamber to a more powerful round.
 
4) Kombi doesn't think the twist in the existing .25-20 bbl will saybilize the heavier-than-100-grain bullets he wants to use.
 
5) Kombi would prefer a "metric" cartridge.
 
6) Kombi wants to keep modification costs as low as possible.
 
7) Kombi wants to keep the cartridge as close to "common" as possible to facilitate getting reloading components in Australia.
 

 
The above list begs several questions. Some are simply answered some are not.
 

 
First, let me simplify the issue somewhat, by focusing on the cartridge head/rim. Reading Donnelly's Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, I see that the .25-20 has a nominal rim diameter of 0.408". The .303 has a nominal rim diameter of 0.525", and the .30-30 Winchester has a nominal rim diameter of 0.506". It appears to me, that there is not a case that fits criteria "3" above that will allow a simple rechambering job. All the cases under consideration will require some rework of the extractor. That is significant in light of criterion "6" above.
 

 
So, let's see if we can keep it simple in light of the requirement to rework the extractor. That opens the field of potential cases somewhat. Given Jay's specs regarding bbl diameter at the chamber - 0.75" - and Kombi's desire to be a bit more powerful than the 303/.25, let me make a list of potential case, and we can eliminate those that don't fit the above criteria.
 

 

 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rim Diameter>>>>>Head Diameter
 
1) .303 British. . . . . . .0.525 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.451
 
2) .30-30 Win. . . . . . . 0.506 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.421
 
3) .444 Marlin . . . . . . .0.514 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.469
 
4) .30-40 Krag . . . . . . 0.545 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.457
 
5) .220 Swift . . . . . . . 0.473 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.450
 
6) .225 Win . . . . . . . . 0.472 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.422
 
7) .7x57R . . . . . . . . . .0.521 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.470
 
8) .307 Win. . . . . . . . .0.506 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.471
 
9) 9.3x72R . . . . . . . . .0.500 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.433
 
10) 9.3x74R . . . . . . . .0.524 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.465
 
11) 7x65R . . . . . . . . .0.521 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.470
12) .25-20 . . . . . . . . . 0.408 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.349

Note the rim and head dimensions for the 9.3x74R. It has been determined that it is too long for the Cadet, but I'm not sure whether it is too "big" for the Cadet.

Looking at the above list, you can see that there are quite a few potential "parent" cases. Case lengths are almost immaterial, as these cases would be used as the "parent" for whatever case you ultimately end up with. The ones that seem most 'reasonable' to me (require the least work to get to where I want to go), are; .220 Swift, 7x57R, .225 Win., .307 Win. and .30-30 Win. Using a niominal 6.5mm (.264") bullet, the Swift and the .225 get necked up, and the 7x57 and .307 get necked down. Can the Cadet handle those case capacities and pressures? I don't know, and I doubt ANYONE knows for certain. Sometimes you just have to "do" and see how things turn out. You can get some idea of pressure limits by looking at the .25-20 pressures.

Let's move on to the twist issue. First, you need to actually measure the twist instead of guessing whether or not it will stabilize "bullets above 100 grains". Actually, I have little doubt that a 117 grain spitzer will be stabilized if a 117 grain RN will. OF COURSE THERE IS ALWAYS THAT POSSIBILITY. However, that would mean that the rifle is at the ragged edge of stabilizing the RN and any reduction in muzzle velocity will result in the RN not stabilizing. Furthermore, a .257 117 grain bullet is longer than a .264 117 grain bullet given that all other design characteristics are the same. If you're going to change from .25 caliber, then a new bbl is called for. This further adds to the cost, but let's "go there".

To summarize to this point, we've acknowledged the requirement to modify the extractor and the requirement to re-barrel to increase caliber to 6.5mm (.264"). At this point of course twist is moot, as you spec it when you order the bbl. Given "where we are", I'd recommend the .307 or the .30-30 Win. Neither are "metric" cartridges, but both are shorter than the Swift or the 7x57R. The .307 is "fatter" than the .30-30 and therefore will give you more case capacity for increased 'oomph' if the Cadet can handle it. The 7x57R and Swift give you even more capacity, but are longer. With the exception of the .307, all of these cases are readily available.

I have saved the most important question for last. What critters are you planning to shoot that require more 'oomph' than the .303/.25? From what I know of Autralian game, feral hogs, and water buffalo are the only critteres that I would consider a .25 caliber "on the short side of". If you're considering those, maybe the Cadet isn't the action to be starting with.

A 117 grain .257 is fine for rusa, axis, tahr, or even red deer should you get over to New Zealand. If you're planning to come to the US, the .25 would do fine for everything short of elk, moose, bears and hogs. (Actually, I think it's fine for hogs, if you are disciplined.) Should you decide to go up from .257 to .264, you can shoot everything except the big bears.

Measure the twist and let us know what it is. Let's iron that wrinkle out.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

kombi1976

#11
I'll set ya straight, Paul, me old mate!
Geez hope that last line isn't a poem.......:confused:
 
Quote from: Gitano1) Kombi has all the .22s he wants.
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Yup, unless someone feels like donating a BSA Martini International in .22lr. ;)
 
 
Quote from: Gitano2) Kombi has a .303/.25 that "won't stabilize anything over 100 grains", and only comes "up" to ("prods buttocks") the 25-35.
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Kinda sorta.
The 303/25 is actually more powerful than a 25/35, 'cept it has a 1/12 twist and won't stabilise heavy bullets.
Believe me.......I've tried. :mad:
BTW, "prods buttock" was added because some folks don't like the expression "kicks butt".
 
Quote from: Gitano3) Kombi has a Martini Cadet rifle in 25-20 that he would like to chamber to a more powerful round.
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Ah.....no.
Always wanted a Cadet in 25-20 and love this new baby the way it is.
I've been hypothesising using it as an example.
Sorry to confuse you.
 
Quote from: Gitano[/size][/font]4) Kombi doesn't think the twist in the existing .25-20 bbl will saybilize the heavier-than-100-grain bullets he wants to use.
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Yeah, and would probably be the case in any 25-20 barrel as their maximum load is usually 87gn.
 
Quote from: Gitano[/size][/font]5) Kombi would prefer a "metric" cartridge.
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Darn tootin'!!
 
Quote from: Gitano[/size][/font]6) Kombi wants to keep modification costs as low as possible.
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Within reason.
Afterall the only thing you get for dirt cheap is dirt and everything has a cost.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear......unless you're Jay that is.
 
 
Quote from: Gitano7) Kombi wants to keep the cartridge as close to "common" as possible to facilitate getting reloading components in Australia.
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Mmmm, kinda, but I'd be willing to pick a rarer cartridge if it were metric and still available reliably if not easily.
The cal isn't the problem.
The case is.
 
To address some more of your statements I'll do them in order(without the quotes though).
  • I'm aware of the ol' extractor issue. It's the reason why Martinis don't really do rimless and yes, for any different cartridge it would have to be altered.
  • BTW, too long for the Cadet is too big...unless youhave some special new cases made of rubber. At the end of the day if it won't go in it's too big, what ever the reason. And the '74R is actually too long for the large frame Martini Enfield, Henry or Greener, not just the Cadet....unless I read something wrong. I think I'm correct.
  • I realise that a new cal means a new barrel and that doesn't concern me. It's an obvious thing.
  • I was intending to buy another Cadet action, should I find a suitable cartridge, and slowly build the rifle up from it and I want a metric over-.257/sub-8mm cartridge for it if possible.
  • My aim with a large frame Martini was a large cal hard hitter, possibly even capable of buffalo. I'd been thinking of .416 Barnes in lieu of the Rigby but I've become attracted to 9.3mm in a large way. Hate to say it, but 45-70 was looking a little passé....sorry black powder/western action dudes. :confused:
In these ways I intend to fill the gaps in my collection, if possible of course.
Who knows, a large frame may end up with a 7x57R or 7x65R and I may just buy a Baikal single shot in 9.3x74R.
Or for that matter I might get a Carl Gustaf 96, Husky 96 or Turkish M98 chambered to 9.3x62 instead, since it tends not to be high pressure.
Guys have been talking about this on other forums.
The really interesting one would be a 9.3mm 45-70 wildcat.
Mmmm, 9.3x53R Kombi Improved.......sounds cool!!! :p :D
Of course NOW we're talking expensive!! :confused: :eek:
Off to do some more dreaming. ;)
Cheers & God Bless
22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


Jay Edward (deceased)

"Afterall the only thing you get for dirt cheap is dirt and everything has a cost.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear......unless you're Jay that is."

Thanks for the compliment Kombi.  Actually what you said is true in a very particular sense... bringing a firearm (or other item) back to life, especially in a new way gives me a great deal of pleasure.  When I was quite a bit younger, I lived for the customizing of military firearms.  It was pretty much a way of life for a whole group of us.  I guess we just 'saw' the silk purse buried in the sow's ear waiting to be liberated.



"My aim with a large frame Martini was a large cal hard hitter, possibly even capable of buffalo. I'd been thinking of .416 Barnes in lieu of the Rigby but I've become attracted to 9.3mm in a large way. Hate to say it, but 45-70 was looking a little passé....sorry black powder/western action dudes."

Think about the .50-90 loaded with smokeless for your hard hitter.  It will work through the Martini action and it will take down buffalo when using the proper bullets.

LLANOJOHN (deceased)

Kombi,
 
Looking at the cartridges suggested........I find one missing that might be of interest.
 
7x30 Waters!
 
This one might be of interest.
 
Ol' John
Life Member-NRA-TSRA
Riflesmith-Bolt & Lever Centerfires Only
Left-Hand Creek Rifles
Mark Twain was right-"There is no such thing as too much good whiskey!"
My best advice.."Best to stay outta trees and offa windmills!"

gitano

Gentlemen;
 
Are you sure you know to what "Making a 'silk purse' out of a sow's ear" actually refers? :) I suspect you'd be surprised.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

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