Hmmm.....
 
I was on the phone with Drinksgin, and we were discussing our respective H&R .45-70s and what "kicks". He mentioned that in his 7.5-pound rifle, the 500 grain bullet going 1600-ish fps was a real eye-opener. I commented that the 500 doing 1800-ish fps in my 9.5 pound rifle was none too 'pleasant' either. Then we started talking about lead/bullet hardness, and where the "failure" point was wrt to PSI, so I got out Lee's reloading manual (2nd edition) and noted that it didn't list ANY charges for ANY .45-70 rifles, regardless of how "modern" they were, with 500 grain MVs greater than 1600-ish fps. (If you check my most recent range report on my .45-70 you'll see that I was getting 1799 on average from 50.0 grains of N-135.)Hmmm....
 
So I looked at Hornady - no 500 grain bullets offered. Hmmm.... so I looked back at Lee, and looked under the .458 Win Mag cartridge. Shore enuf, there about in th emiddle was a load that yielded 1810 fps at the muzzle for a 500 grain bullet. CUP was 30,300. Hmmm.....
 
Now I don't use load manuals for much except sorta starting loads, and to check on where max might be. Thereafter, I rely on my experience and some physical characteristics of the fired brass to tell me when things are getting 'hot'. These loads of 50.0 grains of N-135 would appear, based on the muzzle velocities, to be 'hot'. However, the primer shoulders are still rounded! I get NO signs of excessive pressure with this load whatsoever. Cases are fine, extraction is easy.... By the way, the load that yielded 1810 f/s in the .458 Win Mag was 72 grains (of H4350 I think). I'm using 22 grains less powder (30% less), and achieving the same MVs, without any apparent signs of excessive pressure. Hmm...
 
I slathered on RCBS Case Lube-2 as a bullet lubricant. I wonder if this has anything to do with the extra velocity without the "extra" pressure? Any thoughts about any of this?
 
Paul

Paul;
Check the test forum post.
Don

Just a couple of thoughts. What is your rifling twist as opposed to the .458 standard twist. The .458 is listed as a jacketed bullet ( Im guessing here) as opposed to a cast lead in your rifle? A slower rate of twist with a cast bullet would( theory ) allow greater velocity with the load you are quoting? Just an idea.

I show a max load of N135 of 54 Grns.  This is listed as a compressed load and a pressure level of 38,200 C.U.P at a velocity of 1801 FPS with a 500 gr lead bullet.  With the warning that it should only be used in modern rifles.
 
 For a 500 gr jacketed round nose I list a max load of N135 at 52.2 gr cooking along at 1735, pressure at 38,800 C.U.P.  Again for use in modern rifles and actions only!
 
 Not safe for use in a trapdoor rifle.  At all.
 
 These were loads in a 24" barrel.  I forgot at what pressure point primers flaten...but I'm pretty sure it is WAY above anything that you should come close to in a 45-70.  Just because you don't have flat primers in a cartridge like the 45-70 doesn't mean you aren't exceding safe pressures.  Food for thought.
 
 Not responsible if you blow yourself up, nor is THL, or your neighbor, etc......
 
 I have a 'small' collection of reloading manuals.  This was pulled from lyman's 48th.

38,000 cup ain't nothin' in a handi rifle. now, i reckon you might have back thrust issues since the base is better than a half inch. but the sb2 handis handle 270 win and 25-06 pressures with alacrity. mucho over 38k cup.
i have a .30-06 and a .308 ultra. you know what the pressures are in factory ammo. lovely primer appearance after firing in my handis after significantly higher pressures.
if i remember correctly from assorted readings, the handi and marlin 1895 are rated equal - and well above the trapdoor in ability to handle pressures, but short of a good bolt gun.
garrett and other custom suppliers load some mighty hunting rounds for the 45-70, meant for the marlin.
abiding in Him,
><>

Your points are well-taken fish. I was just surprised not to find a single load listing for an 1800 f/s, 500-grain .45-70 load in any of the reloading manuals I have.
 
Any thoughts on case lube as a bullet lube?
 
Paul

Sorry guys, I didn't see the other posts.
 
calestus - I was wondering, 'til the end anyway, where you got those N-135 loads. I'm getting 1800 f/s with 50 grains. Sounds like I'm in good shape from Lyman's perspective.
 
azhdryder - good thought. At the moment, I can't remember what the twist is, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty slow. I'm also surprised at how shallow the rifling is.
 
On a side note from my conversation with Don, the air-cooled, and therefore much softer, bullets shoot way better than the water-dropped and harder ones. These are not gas-checked, nor are they hollow-based. According to Lee, I've exceeded the structural limits of these softer bullets and accuracy should go down, not up. Again, I wonder if the lube is affecting these elements significantly?
 
Paul

reckon obturation of those skirtless - but softer - bullets is the key to better accuracy? or that combined with your wonderful home-brew lube?
never done cast bullets. but the process do fascinate me. you guys are going to end up costing me a handi barrel in 45-70.
in any case, rifles are individuals. maybe you figured out your rifle's likes and dislikes quicker than most.
abiding in Him,
><>

The lube could very well work to reduce your pressures in a manor similar to moly coating. One thing to keep in mind when working with an older case while the action may easily handle higher pressures the case it self may not. Such is the case with the 30-30 and 303 Brit when loaded into stronger actions. Case failure even with a good action is not alot of fun. But I bet that this would be a thumper bear or buffalo load. You need to get a musk ox tag so you can use it on them since there seems to be a shortage of buffalo to hunt.

Musk ox tags are harder to come by than buffalo. Then after you get the tag ($500), you've got to pay a trespass fee (in the $500 range) to hunt on Native land. I won't be shooting any musk oxen. Plus, I've chased themn around the North Slope, and they are no challenge whatsoever huntign-wise. If you find them, you kill them. Finally, they're not as big as the big macho gunwriters suggest. A big bull will only go 500 pounds. When I was a grad student at UAF, I worked at the Large Animal Research Station. Part of my duties included moving the "bruis brothers" around. A pair of musk oxen bulls. Height at the withers is only about belly-button height on an average man. The exciting part is that the tips of those very pointy horns is just about exactly crotch high on an average man.
 
WRT the cases, these are modern cases. The old cases were 'balloon' construction - the new ones are extruded. I am not concerned about case failure when the primers still have round shoulders. It just seemed odd that I couldn't find a reloading manual that had a .45-70 load for a 500 grain bullet doing more than 1600-ish. Turns out, I just wasn't looking in hte right manual. :) It's good to hear that Lyman doesn't consider 50 grains of N-135 a top load for the 500 grainer. It is my top load however. 37 ft-lbs of free recoil and 3500 ft-lbs of muzzle energy are all I'm interested in thank you very much. If a 500 grain, .461" bullet generating 3500 ft-lbs of muzzle energy isn't big enough for a specific critter, I don't want to take that critter on.
 
Paul

That Would Pack Quit A Punch At What Ever You Through It At I Am Debating Getting A 45-70 Or A 450 Marlin

:D Paul, I liked the post, guy's I've just got to were I can get 2'' groups with my 45/70 using the 405 gr ammo, drops about 4 inch after 200 yards, i may never use 500 gr ammo, So thanks for the info,
 
:DHunter76, I saw a young man shoot a wild boar on the run with a 450, ole hog just went about 70 feet. shoot in the hip, Ron

It's a funny thing Ron, for calibers under about .338, I prefer light to medium weight bullets. For those above .338, I prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets. I think it's because in "the small ones I like to have the bullets going really fast. Since the big ones can't go fast, I like to "sling lead". Of course as usual, there are exceptions :) I like those heavy 70-ish grain bullets in large-cased .22 cartridges. Just no understanding some people's kids.
 
As it turns out, the 405s shoot better out of my .45-70 too. I'm just not ready to give up the fun I see down-range when that 500 grain bullet hits the backstop. :)
 
Paul

:D LOL,  paul I may try some 500 gr's the 405's drop about 4" after 200 yards, My try an work with it an see how much they drop, Ron

I'm using cast lead 405 grain bullets and 35 grains of 4198 for about 1350FPS in my 1895G.  I also was shooting the 405 cheapie rem. bulk bullets with about 47 grains of same and they were hot.  I was getting stuck cases and sometimes auto opening of the action.  Whats a good hot load that the marlin can take?

PS: I desperately want to build a 45-70 Gov. fun gun on an inexpensive 16ga double.  That would be cheap shooting.  Or a 45-90....or 45-110 or 45-120....

Thanks,
Colorado