Different Rifle Action Accuracy Topic

Started by teddy12b, March 17, 2005, 08:50:07 PM

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teddy12b

What is the most accurate rifle action out there?  I'm mostly interested for hunting, but off the bench would be fine here to illustrate the point.
 
Most people will say that a bolt action is the most accurate rifle a person can get, generally speaking.  
 
Wouldn't a single shot rifle be just as accurate if not more then?
 
What about a pump action rifle?  Nothing is moving when the rifle is fired, at least not that I know of.
 
Generally speaking most people agree that semi-autos aren't as accurate as the kinds listed above, even though several are incredibly accurate.  I don't want to start an arguement over some autos are more accurate than others.  
 
I know we could all get caught up in argueing one gun makers brand over the other but let's just keep it simple.
 
How would you rate these rifle actions for accuracy?  (1 being the best)
 
     1.)  Auto
     2.)  Pump
     3.)  Single shot
     4.)  Lever Action
     5.)  Bolt Action
 
I'm particularly interested in seeing how accurate most people think a pump rifle is compared to these others.

CAfrica

Teddy,
 
I'm sure the gunsmiths & the guru's will be in on this one shortly so let me stick my neck out so long and wager an opinion.
 
Accuracy of a firearm is determined by the action, the bbl, the stock, the scope mounts (assuming a scope) and some other minor factors.
 
A pump or a lever action's accuracy (or lack there-of) is determined not only by the difference in action (more on that later) but also by the way the stock arrangement affects the bbl harmonics and the way a scope is mounted on it.  Most lever actions have bbl bands that hold the fore-end and also carry a tube magazine which further affects bbl harmonics.  That plus the fact that the general lever action usually has a shorter bbl than a bolt or sinlgle shot probably contributes more to the difference in accuracy than the action as such.
 
About the action, the bolt has a much stronger camming action to ensure a tight fit of the bolt head behind the cartridge than the lever, semi auto or pump action (tight fit means less potential movement under pressure of the shot going off).  Because of this the Bolt is inherently capable of better accuracy than the others mentioned.
 
The single shot, is not an action although I suppose when we talk of single shots we usually assume some type of falling block action.  Single shots are also bolt actions or break open (like a shotgun) and some others. (simlilarly there are differences in the actions between bolts and different lever actions etc but lets not complicate the matter too much, just as an example, the rear locking bolts are regarded as being less accurate than the front locking ones)
 
The single shot bolt is regarded as being capable of better accuracy than the magazine bolt (because you dont have the large hole for the magazine, you can make the action itself stronger with less flex).
 
The falling block type would be my number one for accuracy.  You have a short action (less flex in the action) and a stong action with little movement under pressure.
 
I would rate them:
Falling block
Bolt action (front locking)
Lever action
Pump action
Semi Auto
 
I wouldn't even hazard a guess at where a break open rifle would fit in this scale.
 
Interesting topic, I'm sure it is going to be hotly debated.
 
C

Brithunter

Hi All,

       Well I will have to go along with the Falling Block being very accurate, or rather have the potential to be very accurate. They sure used to be used for target shooting a lot. I would say to be as accurate as possible the falling or even pivoting block would be better off with a one piece stock then with the heavy barrel this can be free floated and the stock used for just supporting the hand/bipod etc. As you may have noticed I do not normally have much store for floated barrels but in a target rifle where looks are scondary and you would normally have a very heavy barrel including Benchrest type rifles, then I can see the benifits of floating it providing the action has enough bearing area to support the  weight of the barrel and the action also has enough length to thread the barrel in with enough support to keep everything totally rigid and in line.
 
     The bearing area of the actions may be why the single shot bolt action is chosen for benchrest. When you hang about 8-10lbs of barrel off the front of the action you need a good area of contact to support that weight out front. Now a special falling or pivoting block with an extra tang out front low, not touching the barrel, but just adding bearing surface for the action to bed into the stock would work and the front ring of the action made longer to allow for a longer tennon for the threads would stiffen up things even more. Heck as this is  a bench rest gun weight is not much of a problem so if the 6mm rifle ends up weighing 13 lbs well it does not notice when it laying on bags on the bench, the weight will cut recoil down and make it sit more solidly. Heck why were at it why not fit a solid mount like the coastal artillery, it shouldn't move off aim at all then:D .
 
      In all things we have to strike a balance, the accuracy for portabilty to a certain degree. If the lugsof the bolt are not true to the front of the action and therefore the barrel, accuracy suffers.
 
  so it goes:-
 
1) Falling/pivoting block/Bolt ( can't split them up as they can be about equal)
 
2) Semi auto ( the M1A can be made very accurate, also some are used for sniping)
 
3) Lever/Pump depending upon breech locking sytem can be about the same, the BLR can be very accurate for instance.
 
    I can second you thoughts on the break action, this can be very accurate indeed, some of the custom Ferlach produced ones and those from Chapuis have an excellent reputation fro accuracy indeed. However some of the cheap makes are poor in the accuracy dept so ........................ where does one put them?:confused:
 There that's muddied the waters :rolleyes:
Go Get them Floyd!

deadeye2

Teddy I agree with CAfirca, But I do like the bolt action over the single banger. I have 14 left handed bolt action rifles and they all will shoot well  under 1" groups, hence one shot, one kill.

I have one 760 Rem Pump that I sent back to Rem. that shoots very good, for a pump action rifle, about 1 1/2" groups.  My old 870 Rem shot gun, with scope and slug barrel, shoots about 2" groups.

The bottom line is, tis the choice of the owner and what he wants. If you can only shoot 3-4" groups and are happy with them, thats fine. If you are not happy then something has to be changed. I have worked with alot of hunter/shooters over the past years. They come with thier rifles and I watch them shoot a five shot group at 100 yds. At that time time I will know if I need to work on the operator or the rifle, or perhaps both.
Be Safe...Have Fun
 
deadeye2

Brithunter

Hi deadeye2,

         Hmm I could do with some of that coaching, I do not shoot half as well as I used to. Fitness is part of the problem which I am trying to work on, but my technique certainly needs looking at and correcting. Knowing that is needs sorting and exactly what is wrong is two different things though. No doubt you have seen this before, so I will keep on plugging on and se if I cannot improve things a little bit at a time.
 
      One thing I have found it that my shoulder bruises very easily now, it's bruised now from shooting Wednesday at the range and yesterday over tha wood, I am testing a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1903 rifle tomorrow afternoon which I have to load some cartridges for:p  and Sunday is another range day, such a hard life:D  but I will know all about it come Monday:( . I think a car accident soem years ago which left me with whiplash injuries has not helped any, prone shooting is really uncomfortable now.
Go Get them Floyd!

drinksgin (deceased)

Always hear about bolt actions, however, some of the BP single shots of the 19th century did really good shooting, especially at long ranges.
Have just seen several posts where a Handi-Rifle in .22 something or other did .4" or less at 100yds, actually, several Handi Rifles.
I can get less than 1 " at 50 yds with my .45-70 Handi rifle with a 2.5x scope, should do better with some fine tuning.
I just shot some cast and jacketed loads in my old 788, .243.
Had 3 of 6 groups with all holes touching, 2 within less than 3/4" and one group of 3 that completely missed the paper.
Oh well!
Don  ;D
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

LLANOJOHN (deceased)

Sorry guys, the bolt wins every time........Yes the single-shot actions can be made to shoot very accurately but they will never stay with the bolt gun.

One primary reason.........LOCK TIME!  That is the time from when the trigger and the sear dis-engage until the primer is ignited by the firing pin.......The bolt wins every time...
 
Best regards,
 
Ol' John..;)
Life Member-NRA-TSRA
Riflesmith-Bolt & Lever Centerfires Only
Left-Hand Creek Rifles
Mark Twain was right-"There is no such thing as too much good whiskey!"
My best advice.."Best to stay outta trees and offa windmills!"

M1Garand

As a generalization I'll go with the bolt, then the falling block, lever and pump/auto.  However one exception is the Browning BLR.  First test 3 shot group I had with 200 gr Rem Core Lokts measured .36 inches center to center.  One day I'll get a digital camera and post a pic of that group.  But really its essentially a lever operated bolt action.  I'd put it against any out of the box bolt out there.

m gardner

The major contributing factor to accuracy in my opinion is the quality and weight of the barrel followed by the skill of installing it and bedding it. for leverguns the Savage is one of the best I've shot probaly because it has about 1 full inch of thread to support the barrel which is more than most bolt guns. The 7600 Remington pump is capable of sub MOA. But Most bolt guns and single shots are made to more exacting standards because people expect more from them. So if we are talking factory guns the bolt and single shot falling blocks are usually the most accurate with the rest a close second. God bless and good shooting.

Brithunter

Hi John,

        Sorry my friend but a Single shot which is striker fired and does not use a hammer, like the Martini pivoting block action and I believe the Hagn action has a very fast lock time. This is one reason the BP Silhouette folks won't allow the Martinis to be used even though they are old enough, they have to have an exposed hammer to enter. The Martini action coupled to a new good barrel would beat their favorites and they know it so they banned them:rolleyes: .
Go Get them Floyd!

sakorick

Bolt, bolt.....bolt.........bolt...............to infinity:D
 
 
 
Quote from: teddy12bWhat is the most accurate rifle action out there? I'm mostly interested for hunting
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

firebird

I am surprised no one mentioned the chamber dimentions of the various action types. Virtually all target rifles have much tighter chamber dimensions than  hunting rifles to keep the cartridge accuratly aligned with the bore.  Tight chamber dimensions are less often used in hunting rifles because they can occasionally lead to sticky shell ejection and are not roomy enought to alllow consistant feeding from non controlled feed actions like the lever action, some pumps and the auto loader.  Also tight chambers leaves no room for the normal dust and other tiny debris  that can be picked up while hunting but would not as likely be encountered at a target range. No one wants a jammed rifle when trying to make a follow up shot on game. Single shot rifles are hand fed and can come in either target or hunting chambers. Auto loaders and lever actions usually have larger chamber dimensions tham most other rifles for more reliable chambering with thier rather sloppy push in feed designs. Single shot and bolts are usually the most accurate and many break actions can also be very accurate when all are combined with other components such as accurate barrels with tight chambers and proper bedding or free floating. When rifles reach a very high level of accuracy the weakest part of the accuracy equation often becomes the shooter. For a big game rifle, 3" at 100yrds will do just fine for me. For targets from the bench or varmints,  I look for all the accuracy I can get.
 Just my opinion, yours may differ.

Brithunter

Hi All,
 
    Well the most accurate rifle I have shot is a strange one, neither bolt nor single shot, it was the Blaser 93 straight pull with it's collet locking system. The rifles I shot were in .308 and they were stunningly accurate. A friend has a Ruger No1B in .243 Win and with 85 grn bullets it's a real tack driver, however feed it 100 grn bullets and it patterns like a shotgun :rolleyes: . These three rifles will comfortably beat a awful lot of target rifles are are meant as hunting arms. Tight chambers may help with factiry ammo fired for the first time but on reloading the cases the advantage is lost unless the fool full length sizes them. Tight chambers really help with brass life and reallu minimum chambers with tight necks like those used in Bench rest guns mean they can reload with specialised hand tools with minimum effort at the range.
 
     Now back to that strange Blaser rifle, my friend the gamekeepers grandson recently brought a Blaser 93 Off Road. A synthetically stock rifle chambered in 7x57 Mauser and it's frightenly accurate with factory RWS 139 grn ammunition. From a rested position like the  bonnet of the Dahatsu it put 3 shots into a group which can be covered by a quarter $ coin at 100 paces and a couple of days ago he used it to drop 4 big Fallow Bucks in one evening, all neck shot. Boy I wish I could have been there :( .
Go Get them Floyd!

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