I was in Murdochs a while back looking for something else and came across some Hornady 108 ELDs. I thought "hmmmm, these look interesting so I bought a box and a pound of Hybrid 100V to make them go bang. After using up most of that pound trying to get them to shoot I tried some IMR4350 which is showing signs of tiny groups. 3/4 inch so far!!!

These bullets are supposed to be run out of a 1:8 twist barrel but if I can get things tuned I'm sure I can get my 1:9 1/8 twist 700VLS to produce minute of prairie dog groups. If this rifle can shoot 58 grain Vmax's in one hole I'm sure I can make the 108's work as well.

As soon as I get a password I can remember I will post pictures of progress.

RJ

QuoteIf this rifle can shoot 58 grain Vmax's in one hole I'm sure I can make the 108's work as well.

I'm not as certain of that as you are, BUT, sic 'em!

Looking forward to seeing the targets.

Paul

OK, so I was trying the Hybrid100V as per Hornady's recomendations. My rifle doessn't like this "new and improved" powder for what ever reason, so I go to the old standby IMR4350. I started where I left off (COAL) at the best group with the H100V and start seating further and further out







until: Here's the last target. Five shots, 100 yards.



I think that more closer to the lands will land me in a smaller group yet.

Paul, Oh ye of little faith

RJ

Great job! Glad to see it worked out! I've had a tough time getting long bullets to shoot straight most (not all) of the time.

Paul

Ye of little faith

RJ

Quote from: recoil junky;148440Ye of little faith :clown:RJ

Ye of little faith was my SS lesson last week. I comes from Matt 14:23-36, the miracle of Jesus walking on water. Of course, Peter tries to walk on water too until he gets scared and starts to sink and in Vs 31, "Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. You of Little faith he said, why did you doubt." There were 37 miracles recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In each and every one, Jesus is saving souls which is far more important than just healing people from various afflictions.

Now to get back on subject....great shooting RJ. Those VLS rifles have a great habit of making itty bitty groups. It amazes me that you can shoot light and heavy bullets in the same rifle.....Very impressive!:yes:

I'm still working on it Rick. Hopefully Friday when I'm home alone I will be able to work on in more. Then I will take it out to 200, 300 and 500 yards to see how it's actually working. I want to use this for prairie dogs as it's of the same (basically) construction as the Vmax and Zmax bullets.

Rj

So, I tried seating the 4350 load out to 2.880 (which in reality is .026 off the lands after re-re-re-measuring COAL at the lands for a measurement of 2.906 ) and the VLS doesn't like this at all soooooo I have this pound of H4831sc sitting on the bench saying "PICK ME PICK ME!!!" and without changing seating depth (on a whim) I loaded up 5 and



A group of three touching and two fliers OR a group of 2 touching and three fliers.

AAAAAAUUUUURRRGH!!!!!!!   :cens:

I'm going to check action screws I think. I don't THINK this is a problem but. . . . . . .

RJ

:cens: AAAAAAUUUUURRRRGH!!!



Same load after "re-torquing" the action screws

The .243 is now soaking AGAIN in Wipe out, brass is in the tumbler and when it is done it will get annealed AGAIN, trimmed AGAIN and beburred AGAIN. Really pleasantly surprised at how little this R-P .243 brass grows. Only .006 after being fired 3 or 4 times? I want everything back on the same plane again for further load development.

I just love trimming and annealing and deburring. It's akin to getting a root canal

RJ

Yeah, those loads that "throw one" now and then are what I'm dealing with in both the Hornet and the SSS ammo. I find that very frustrating.

Paul

There were 5 pieces that had primers in them so after the needed cleaning I loaded and shot them.

For "foulers" I used my "deer load" of 85 grain Speers and was very pleased. In the first photo you will notice a "clover leaf" (3 shot) group which is pretty much how I remember them shooting. More about the two "touchers' later. Also note the neat round holes with "black" "painted" neatly around the entire circumference. More on this later as well.



OK, now the 108's loaded with 43.5 grains of H4831sc seated to .026 off the lands. Remember those? Yeah. Not so much this time. This group is with a "warm" barrel, say 15 minutes after shooting the three 85 grain Speers in about 2 minutes.



I'm at a loss here. Not only did the group get bigger with a CLEAN barrel after showing such promise, upon further examination and cleaver "stitching" you can see that the bullets (108's from a clean barrel) are tumbling . . . . . . . . . . . . :cens: RATS. by the "black" in various parts of the holes. So, they need to go FASTER to induce more spin rate to reduce yaw.

OK, now for the two "touchers". These were shot in anger, frustration and, well just plain being PO'd with a HOT barrel showing that indeed the barrel is still in good shape. The Speers were never shot "in a hurry" as in "shooting furry rodents that are coming right for us" hurry like the 58 grain Vmax's seen here.



So, MORE powder means MORE faster and as there is very little sign of pressure reading the primers, I'm going to increase the charge to 44 grains (max is 44.3) and see what happens as I have a whole box of these 108's to make go "bang".

I am not defeated YET!!!

RJ

I have read, and I have personally found, that the seating sweetspot - with respect to the lands - is often between 0.050" and 0.120" off. I know that there are lotsa folks that get good precision with "on" or "close" to the lands. I tried that for quite a while. In the end, the best-shooting groups I could put together were in that 50 to 100 thou off window. Most are between 50 and 70 thou off.

I did load the Hornet to "on the lands" lengths because I am doing everything I can to make the ignition and burn be uniform. Loading into the lands means that neck tension becomes almost moot. Because these loads are VERY low pressure, subsonic loads, "into the lands" does not pose a safety issue with increased ambient temperature. I will NEVER load "normal charge", jacketed bullet, center-fire cartridges "into the lands".

Good luck.

Paul

Yes, and from past history this rifle "likes" to be about that far although the 58 grain Vmax's and 85 grain Speer "Deer getters" are much more than that as if I would have seated the 58's that far out they wouldn't even be in the neck. As it is now they are only 1/2 caliber in the neck and the Speers are seated to the same COAL so's I didn't have to mess with the seater

I have also experienced pressure spikes seating bullets as far out as these are, but I'm experimenting. So, a go at 44 grains just for kicks then I'll start bumping them back in .020 at a time'til they are close again, then maybe more powder still.

Dump day tomorrow morning (PHEW) and a funeral for an :angel: in the afternoon, yucky day all around. I don't do well at funerals, not at all. I won't be at my own so . .. . .

Maybe Tuesday morning before I go see the new knee doctor.

RJ

Targets are looking better RJ,  I'm wondering if the flyers could be a neck tension difference or even just a little barrel heat?. Might try shooting the first 3 then waiting until the barrels stone cold and shoot the last 2...just a thought?

I am not a waiter. No waiting, it has to shoot well at any temperature or it gets adjusted til it does. Sometimes the barrel will get hotter by sitting in the sun UNFIRED when it's 98 degrees than it does after five shots in 3 minutes in the shade.

The "good news" from the cleaning? There was very little if any copper fouling.

To edit: It's frustrating to, even if for appearances, be so close and end up so far away after something as simple as cleaning. To have 58 grain bullets which by all stretches of anyone's wildest of imaginations SHOULD NOT SHOOT even in a 1:10 twist, let a lone a 1:9 1/8.

I still think I can get and keep them (the 108's) under 3/4 inch, maybe even a half, which is "OK". If I/they indeed can not get smaller than 1/2, they will "work" for prairie dogs out to maybe 400 yards which I can already achieve with the 58's, so why have two loads . . . . . . . .

The only seemingly logical alternative is to get another .243 with a 1:8 twist barrel.

RJ