Took the M95 to the range to check on some loads for cast bullets and the Hornady 205 grain jacketed bullet in .329". The results were surprising. I have only little experience with cast bullets, mostly with the .424-7-9" bullets in a .44-40 case out of a 24" rifle bbl. Those experiences have all been very "positive". I guess it was time for a "reality check".

I brought 205 grain cast bullets, and 205 grain Hornady Spire points. The cast bullets were sized to .329" and lubed with Liquid Alox. There were five loads of 5 bullets each for the cast bullets, and three loads of five bullets each for the jacketed Hornadys which mic at 0.329".



The five cast bullet loads were: 40.0gr of I4064, 40.0gr of Varget, 43.0gr of VV-N150, 47.0gr of H4350 and 50.0gr grains of H4831.



The three jacketed bullet loads were: 44.0gr of Varget, 46.0gr of VV-N150, and 51.5gr of H4350.

Muzzle velocities:
Cast with 40.0 of I4064 – 1774 f/s, SD = 14.80 f/s

]Cast with 40.0 of Varget - 1642, SD = 122.39 f/s

Cast with 47.0 of H4350 – 1814 f/s, SD = 44.58 f/s

Cast with 50.0 of H4831 – 1615 f/s, SD = 34.36 f/s

Hornady with 44.0 of Varget – 1944 f/s, SD = 23.86 f/s

Hornady with 46.0 of VV-N150 – 1971 f/s, SD = 14.10 f/s

Hornady with 51.5 of H4350 – 2041 f/s, SD = 1.67 f/s

That's correct, the H4350 SD is only 1.67 f/s. Here are the individual velocities:2038, 2040, 2041, 2042, 2042. I've never seen anything that tight – EVER. Wait 'till you see the difference in accuracy/precision between the cast and the jacketed.

Now here was a REAL eye-opener! I shot the Hornady 205s first. I was pretty pleased with the groups, but not particularly the MVs. Milsurp ammo pushing a 205-grain bullet is right at 2375 f/s with a very small SD. The Hornady loads, with average MVs of 1944 – 2040 f/s, were all at the max load values from the Lee book. I'm sure I can push the velocities up towards 2300+ without pressure concerns. However, look at the velocities and SD of the H4350 loads! WOW! Again, I've never seen 5 shots in a row that tight from ANY gun let alone from a military surplus rifle that's at least 75-years-old! However, the REAL shock was still to come when I shot the cast bullets.


I had to take care so I could keep them on a 2-foot x 2-foot target! The velocities were anemic to say the least, the pressures were so low that I was getting serious blow-by around the cases, and the best I could do accuracy-wise at 50 yards was about 11" for a 5-shot group. There was an interesting HIGH pressure indicator with the lowest velocity cartridges. Not only did the case fail to seal the chamber, but I also got a serious, thin ring on the shoulder. To me, this is a VERY bad sign of pressure as a result of "odd" things happening in the chamber and bore with too light a load. I'll try to get a picture that illustrates the ring clearly, but "eye-balling" and "fingering" the ring is the best way to get the idea.



My two main conclusions are: 1) ALL loads need to be increased, especially the cast bullet loads, and 2) There's no good reason to shoot cast bullets when the Hornadys are available and WAY more accurate in this rifle. I'll raise the loads in the cast bullets just to give them a 'fair shake', but I'm not optimistic regarding their ultimate usefulness.

Part of the problem might be that the cast bullets are too small in diameter. The Lee sizer sizes to .329", the nominal bore diameter. However, it is my understanding that most cast bulletes shoot better when about .001" over actual groove diameter. I could just leave the bullets unsized, but then I can't seat the gas checks. So, if I want larger diameter cast bullets, I'm going to have to get a custom sizer in say .330" or .331". The problem with that is that the mould won't throw a bullet consistently larger than about .3295". So that would mean a custom mould. None of which makes sense considering how well the Hornady jacketed bullets shoot. I also have some Hawk custom 200gr bullets that are .329" . I haven't tried them yet. I figured I would "get close" with the cheaper Hornadys before I started using the Hawks.

From what I read and am told, cast lead alloy bullets are best relegated to muzzle velocities of 2600-ish or less. (drinksgin and I are working on some 3000-ish f/s bullets and loads, but no help there any time soon.) Since the milsurp "factory" loads yield MVs of almost 2400 f/s and I have a source of jacketed bullets that shoot well, I can see little current need to use cast bullets. Should the supply of jacketed bullets dry up, I woud have to go back to working on a cast bullet solution.

Here are the pictures. The H4350 group is in the upper left - only partially in the picture. Most of the variatio in the H4350 group was due having to aim off the target to get the bullets to hit the target. The Point of Aim is approximately 5" high and 5" right of the Point of Impact.]

Paul

What are the 205 Hornadys for? I looked in my book and didn't see and .329 bullets. Are you going to take this with the Hornadys hunting? Does this use the standard 8X57 loading dies, like the 307/308 Winchester or did you have to find dies for the 8X56R? I'm going to try cast bullets in my 8X57 this year and see how they work. Some of the guys at the range use them and they work quite well. A powder of choice seems to be 25gr of IMR 4198.

Quote from: HunterbugWhat are the 205 Hornadys for? Shooting?!?!? Actually, leaving the smarty-pants attitude aside, the 8x56R is nominally .329". Assuming you mean what critters, anything in Alaska up to coastal brown bears.I looked in my book and didn't see and .329 bullets. These aren't listed by Hornady anywhere I can find, but they are indeed Hornadys. Grafs has them. Are you going to take this with the Hornadys hunting? Absolutely! Does this use the standard 8X57 loading dies, Nope. like the 307/308 Winchester or did you have to find dies for the 8X56R? You need 8x56R dies, but Lee has them for about $25. In a pinch, you could use 7.62x54R dies with a .329" expander, but there's no need with the inexpensive Lee dies available. I'm going to try cast bullets in my 8X57 this year and see how they work. I'm not having much luck with cast 8mm (.323") bullest either, and will probably stick to copper jacketed. Some of the guys at the range use them and they work quite well. I'd be very interested in who manufactures their moulds. A powder of choice seems to be 25gr of IMR 4198. That's a very light load, do you have any idea what kind of MVs they're getting?
 
Paul

Lengthening message here boss.

I'm planning on getting a M95 soon. What I've heard the Hornady bullets work very well as you found out. Grafts also has Hornady ammunition for reasonable. They are a very intersting rifle, how was the muzzle blast?

All of my loads were on the "light side", so muzle blast was actually mild. However, the muzzle blast from the nazi milsurp ammo is not noticably different from other large rifles. I would certainly rate it lower than in the M38 or M44. Recoil is tolerable to me without a recoil pad, but I shoot with a pad at the bench.

I can't bring myself to buy the Hornady loaded ammo. I can load for about 25% of that cost, PLUS I have to pay outrageous shipping costs to get ammo to Alaska.

I used some 7.62x54R Russian brass before the 8x56R brass was available. It is practically identical to the 8x56R EXCEPT that the Russian brass leaves a VERY short neck after fireforming. Since Graf started stocking the 8x56R brass, I see no need to "make do" with the Russian brass.

I like the rifle quite a bit, and intend to take it after caribou when I next get a chance. I'm not sure what attracts me to it other than the fact that I kinda like "carbine" length rifles and the .329" bullet is certaily a thumper at 2500-ish. I'm trying to figure out how to get a "scout-type" scope mount. The mislurp sights are pretty bad. A weak "V" on the rear, and a sharp pointed inverted "V" on the front blade. Windage isn't too bad, but consistent elevation is a real bear with that "knife-edge" front blade.

If you get one, please keep is posted on your use.

Paul

I am not the only one to have vertical stringing with those sorry v-v sights!
I was trained on a post with ball front and U or square rear, just cannot keep a consistant sight picture with the V's
Don

Hey Don,
 
Yeah, at closer ranges like 50 yds, it's not too bad, but move out to 100 and beyond and I'm in trouble. I want to keep these rifles "as issued" so I don't want to file the blade down to make a flat top. As I said, I'd like to find or make some sort of scout-type mount that could be mounted to the existing rear sight base, like those for the Mosin Nagants and K-31s.
 
Paul

Hi Guys,

     I have one of these which was sporterised by some one, due to a mistake at the proof house it was classified as an "obsolete calibre" so not requiring is to be put on licence. I brought it for a silly amount here in the UK anyway, it had bee drilled an tapped and had Weaver bases fitted. The reason I brought ti was two fold:-

 

1) I already have a converted carbine is standard isse configuration and as the spares are difficult to get I wanted this for spares in case anything evr breaks.

2) The scop on it was an old 3x Bushnell scope Chief, I like older scopes and the price was low enough so i could feasably sell the scope alone for more than I paid for the rifle.

     Now I looked down the bore and it looked horrrible to say the least, sewer pip springs to mind, but I gave it a cleaning and it looked a little better, well i ahd to try this thing out and see that it functione OK, so off over the fields I go ( I have 8mm on my licence for deer) and I fire a few shots using the scope. To my surprise it shoots not too badly. Well i came home and cleaned it again, to my surprise the bore has cleaned up quite well, ues it's got pitting but it's certainly usabel and not pitted so badly that it is inaccurate.

    The fore sight on this has been removed when the barrel was cut back (it was a long rifle) and a Geman mauser ramp fitted complete with the eagle stamp, however the person filed out the dovetail slot to take some unknown blade which is missing. Another interesting thing is that the entire bolt has been plated with a satin finish. Of course to use the centrally mounted scope requires eithr singel shot use or the scope to be lifted off each time to insert the clip, neither being a good option.
 
     In the new year I fully intend to get some proper 8x56R brass, I brought the Lee dies and I have fire formed a couple of 7.2x54R cases but I am not real happy with the look of them, I need to get some of the correct brass i am thinking. I wonder about a side mount of the D+T rilfe after all it's already been mucked p and I can play with it  wtihout feelign guilty. There is of course a legal question here which I am trying to get to the bottom of, I have a document which says it's obsolete but I know that it's not right, although perhaps it should be on the list seeingas the ammo is drying up fast and has not been commercially made for a long, long time. I am shooting Bulgarian 1940 dated ammo in mine as that's all that is available.

Hi,
I know that this post is a bit old now but I want to thank you all for giving me the explanation for the problem I had with with my M95.
I was trying to find an ultra light load like the one I have for my Lee Enfield. The M95 is in excellent condition and was working very well with the 1938 surplus ammo I had. When I tried light loads of H4895 (-30%), I started to feel the blow on my forehead . Instead of increasing the loads, I reduced them with Unique powder and I started to think that the rifle was defective.
Thank you very much for your help




"I want money in order to buy time to do things money can't buy"

Gitano, after our discussion I was rereading this thread and I saw that you had asked a question that I didn't answer. :o The mould for the cast .323 bullets is the Lyman #323471. It's a 215gr semi-spitzer over 25gr of IMR-4198 for about 1900fps at the muzzle.

Quote from: gitano;1136Took the M95 to the range to check on some loads for cast bullets and the Hornady 205 grain jacketed bullet in .329". The results were surprising. I have only little experience with cast bullets, mostly with the .424-7-9" bullets in a .44-40 case out of a 24" rifle bbl. Those experiences have all been very "positive". I guess it was time for a "reality check".
 
I brought 205 grain cast bullets, and 205 grain Hornady Spire points. The cast bullets were sized to .329” and lubed with Liquid Alox. There were five loads of 5 bullets each for the cast bullets, and three loads of five bullets each for the jacketed Hornadys which mic at 0.329".
 
 
 
The five cast bullet loads were: 40.0gr of I4064, 40.0gr of Varget, 43.0gr of VV-N150, 47.0gr of H4350 and 50.0gr grains of H4831.
 
 
 
The three jacketed bullet loads were: 44.0gr of Varget, 46.0gr of VV-N150, and 51.5gr of H4350.
 
Muzzle velocities:
Cast with 40.0 of I4064 – 1774 f/s, SD = 14.80 f/s
 
Cast with 40.0 of Varget - 1642, SD = 122.39 f/s
 
Cast with 47.0 of H4350 – 1814 f/s, SD = 44.58 f/s
 
Cast with 50.0 of H4831 – 1615 f/s, SD = 34.36 f/s
 
Hornady with 44.0 of Varget – 1944 f/s, SD = 23.86 f/s
 
Hornady with 46.0 of VV-N150 – 1971 f/s, SD = 14.10 f/s
 
Hornady with 51.5 of H4350 – 2041 f/s, SD = 1.67 f/s
 
That's correct, the H4350 SD is only 1.67 f/s. Here are the individual velocities: 2038, 2040, 2041, 2042, 2042. I’ve never seen anything that tight – EVER. Wait ‘till you see the difference in accuracy/precision between the cast and the jacketed.
 
Now here was a REAL eye-opener! I shot the Hornady 205s first. I was pretty pleased with the groups, but not particularly the MVs. Milsurp ammo pushing a 205-grain bullet is right at 2375 f/s with a very small SD. The Hornady loads, with average MVs of 1944 – 2040 f/s, were all at the max load values from the Lee book. I’m sure I can push the velocities up towards 2300+ without pressure concerns. However, look at the velocities and SD of the H4350 loads! WOW! Again, I’ve never seen 5 shots in a row that tight from ANY gun let alone from a military surplus rifle that’s at least 75-years-old! However, the REAL shock was still to come when I shot the cast bullets.
 
 
I had to take care so I could keep them on a 2-foot x 2-foot target! The velocities were anemic to say the least, the pressures were so low that I was getting serious blow-by around the cases, and the best I could do accuracy-wise at 50 yards was about 11” for a 5-shot group. There was an interesting HIGH pressure indicator with the lowest velocity cartridges. Not only did the case fail to seal the chamber, but I also got a serious, thin ring on the shoulder. To me, this is a VERY bad sign of pressure as a result of “odd” things happening in the chamber and bore with too light a load. I’ll try to get a picture that illustrates the ring clearly, but “eye-balling” and “fingering” the ring is the best way to get the idea.
 
 
 
My two main conclusions are: 1) ALL loads need to be increased, especially the cast bullet loads, and 2) There’s no good reason to shoot cast bullets when the Hornadys are available and WAY more accurate in this rifle. I’ll raise the loads in the cast bullets just to give them a ‘fair shake’, but I’m not optimistic regarding their ultimate usefulness.
 
Part of the problem might be that the cast bullets are too small in diameter. The Lee sizer sizes to .329", the nominal bore diameter. However, it is my understanding that most cast bulletes shoot better when about .001" over actual groove diameter. I could just leave the bullets unsized, but then I can't seat the gas checks. So, if I want larger diameter cast bullets, I'm going to have to get a custom sizer in say .330" or .331". The problem with that is that the mould won't throw a bullet consistently larger than about .3295". So that would mean a custom mould. None of which makes sense considering how well the Hornady jacketed bullets shoot. I also have some Hawk custom 200gr bullets that are .329" . I haven't tried them yet. I figured I would "get close" with the cheaper Hornadys before I started using the Hawks.
 
From what I read and am told, cast lead alloy bullets are best relegated to muzzle velocities of 2600-ish or less. (drinksgin and I are working on some 3000-ish f/s bullets and loads, but no help there any time soon.) Since the milsurp "factory" loads yield MVs of almost 2400 f/s and I have a source of jacketed bullets that shoot well, I can see little current need to use cast bullets. Should the supply of jacketed bullets dry up, I woud have to go back to working on a cast bullet solution.
 
Here are the pictures. The H4350 group is in the upper left - only partially in the picture. Most of the variatio in the H4350 group was due having to aim off the target to get the bullets to hit the target. The Point of Aim is approximately 5" high and 5" right of the Point of Impact.
 
Paul

 
 
per my post in the other thread, as you can see the velocity of this round is way down, compared to the computer disk program predictions. Being below 2000 fps, it's not even attaining 30-30 winchester velocities. I bought 2 boxes of loaded Hornady ammo and dies- the Hornady ammo appears to be quite "hot" but thus far I've only fired one round. My gun needs some replacement parts that are en route as I post this message,  but it is functioning albeit as a single shot for now- it  was not extracting/ejecting properly. When cleaned and lubed these M95's are quite slick operating and quick for a bolt action- BUT having a gun that heavy and cumbersome that only equals a 30-30 in performance at best is not really proving anything. I'd expect a caliber and case such as the 8x56R to attain at least 2600 fps or better to be worth hunting with- but it would make a fun Sunday plinker and collector piece at any rate. The obvious boon with these M95's is they are so dirt cheap and plentiful as of late, and I bought mine from an antique store- it was sitting in his glass display case with a few clips of Nazi stamped ammo.

My best group was with the long gun and about 2 inches. I haven't fired it in at least 2 years but I did use 40 odd grains of IMR4064 and it chronied a bit over 2300'/sec as I recall. I have never achieved Pauls phenominal performance. They do kick! Regards, Rick.

I noticed that whenever someone handloads the 8x56R the velocities hover in the 1800-2300 fps range-  yet the original old milsurp ammo hits 2600 fps- obviously the milsurp stuff was loaded for bear and on the hot side
 
same thing with my gun, the one shot I fired, the gun kicked like a mule- it's the heavy bullet 209 grain.  My 30-06 is the same way with any bullets over 200 grain, and my K98 Mauser with 220 grain 8x57 also would give my shoulder and collar bone a real workout.
 
that's why anymore I pick the lightest bullets for handloading and target shooting !

QuoteI noticed that whenever someone handloads the 8x56R the velocities hover in the 1800-2300 fps range- yet the original old milsurp ammo hits 2600 fps- obviously the milsurp stuff was loaded for bear and on the hot side

If that's based at least in part on the above load data, then it needs some clarification.
 
When I first started hand-loading for my M-95, it was very difficult to find any load data. Therefore, I started off conservatively. Hence the above numbers. As I gained experience, I increased the charges, ultimately settling on velocities in the 2400 f/s range for 205-grain bullets. If you search for M-95 posts here at THL, you'll find more recent range reports than the one above.
 
The second issue is the 2600 f/s figure quoted for milsurp ammo. I've put a bunch of it across a chrongraph, and I've yet to find a single one that exceeded 2400 f/s and most are closer to 2300 than 2400. I think trying to reach 2600 with the 205-grain bullet is going to be challenging in the M-95 carbine.
 
That said, and trying to read between the lines,

QuoteBUT having a gun that heavy and cumbersome

it appears that you might be shooting one of the 'long rifles' as opposed to the carbine. Still, I seriously doubt you could get the 205-grain bullet to 2600 f/s even in the long gun.
 
As to recoil, one man's ceiling is another man's floor. I find the carbine, shooting the 205s at 2400 f/s, to be 'fine' with respect to recoil. Furthermore, unless you are shooting the long gun, the carbine is hardly "heavy" or "cumbersome".
 

QuoteI have never achieved Pauls phenominal performance.

[/SIZE]
 
Rick must be refering to the groups I've shot, as I've not gotten muzzle velocity "performance" to exceed 2400 f/s.
 

Quotethat's why anymore I pick the lightest bullets for handloading and target shooting !

Were' singing the same tune there for sure, pardner.
 
If you get a chance, please post a picture of your rifle.
 
Paul

thanks for posting the velocity findings- I did similar experiments with other milsurp guns and eventually came to the conclusion, they are great conversation pieces and hobby guns, but for hunting I'd be better served with my modern Marlin 30-30 model 336 stuffed with 6 shells- lighter, faster handling- because handloading the milsurps didn't gain me much over the factory 30-30 loads on the chronograph- I guess that's why  the 30-30 is still going strong after 100+ years
 
the problem with turn of the century milsurps is very few are capable of a high degree of accuracy unless they are reworked by a competent gunsmith- i.e. the barrel set back/cut off at the threads, remachined, rethreaded, and rechambered.  There is a lot of clearance designed into milsurp chambers, so they would chamber/cycle without jamming in combat conditions, dirty ammo, etc.   Souping up/smithing a Steyr M95 is difficult to do, because there's not enough material around the chamber area to remachine it- and still have enough wall left for strength- by comparison there's much more meat around a Mauser K98/M98 barrel, which is why that action was used for custom sporters and rechambered so often- I have a K98 that easily rebored/rechambered to .358 x 57- the barrel easily took .035" rebore with plenty of wall left to spare- it can actually be bored one more oversize if need be.    The Steyr barrel is already at .135" wall at the muzzle, there's simply not enough meat in the barrel for standard 'smith repair procedures.
 
on the 8x56R- I bought 2 boxes of Hornady loaded ammo w/Graf cases- the velocity printed on the box says 2410 fps- I would not want to push the envelope of pressure with the Steyr M95, I'm skeptical about the strength of the action- I polished the chamber of my gun to remove some minor pitting and was amazed how fast the material was removed- it opened right up- intuition tells me the Steyr  barrels/receivers are not as hard as say, the Mauser K98- and nowhere near as hard as modern guns.   I've polished hardened steels before and if they are very hard a 220 grit  sandpaper won't  touch them- yet 220 grit opened up this Steyr chamber somewhat quickly- that tells me the receivers and barrels on the Steyrs may be on the soft side, which is typical of many late 1800's-early 1900's military arms.
 
yes there wasn't a lot of load info around for 8x56R- using a computer calculator for velocities and bullet drop is a useful tool- knowing the bullet weight and BC and velocity, one can easily calculate the bullet drop with a fair degree of accuracy with a program- from your posts it sounded like you were also calculating chamber pressures with a computer program.  IMHO that sounds risky when looking for maximum loads/velocity.   Chamber pressures can only be accurately checked on a dedicated pressure gun.   I'd be concerned about the computer program telling me a load is safe for pressure, but in reality it actually being high in pressure- then the gun exploding and hurting me or someone else when fired.  I've always relied on checking the brass, looking for flattened primers, extractor marks, etc.- and I never go beyond maximum stated loads in any loading manual.   It pays to be cautious with this stuff.  
 
I'll post some pics of my gun later today- the receiver/barrel are matching numbers, with a nonmatching stock- yes it is the long rifle gun- I found it at a local antique shop in their display case and bought it for $175 with a Nazi clip and 5 rounds of Nazi ammo marked 1938.
 
lately I have been thinking about buying an M95 carbine