http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=469411921

NEVER seen one of these. Looks similar to a Remington Mosin Nagant, but isn't. Looks like it might have been "sporterized" - shortened stock, bent bolt. Very interesting rifle!

Paul

   That looks more like a Mannlicher design than the Russian Mosin one. Mosins never used the Packet Loading system which was a Mannlicher patended design .................................. Hmmm or could it be an early split bridge Mauser?

   Need to hit the books and check a few of the features.

    Wait a moment is that a Berthier?? French arms I know little about but that had a 3 round clip I seem to recall!

    Will still hit the books and see what comes up.

Plenty info online about 'em Kev.

It is indeed a "Berthier", BH. I didn't recognize it as such because of all of the "Remington" stuff. While I have seen Berthiers in pictures, I've actually never held one - regardless of maker - in my hands. I didn't realize Remington made them in addition to St Etienne. There were other makers too. I never cared for French military firearms. Their civilian firearms are another matter. Some are spectacular. I find it interesting that the manufacturers covered the magazine with the wood of the stock. It's 'lumpy', but at least it's covered. I think it looks better covered.

Paul

And  it's been jibbered with. Not worth the money when you can find a real nice one for $400.

That's what I concluded before I knew what it was. I saw the bent bolt and short stock and thought both were not "as issued". HOWEVER...

The bolt could be straightened and a "new" stock procured. Could it be done for less than $200? Probably. Still, I'm not interested. I MIGHT be if it didn't need 'restoration' because it's a Remington. But I don't like the cartridge either, even though it's an 8mm. It reminds me of the Lee 6mm Navy cartridge. A long, "pencil" bullet. Inherently gyroscopically unstable.

All things considered, not going to find this rifle in my collection.

Paul

Why is a long bullet unstable?

The longer the bullet, the faster it has to spin to be gyroscopically stable (hereafter "GS").

Consider the 'shortest' possible projectile for a given caliber - a sphere. There is no way for a sphere to be gyroscopically unstable because the center of mass (CoM) is coincident in all three dimensions with the center of form (CoF). As the sphere enlarges to greater-than-caliber in one dimension, it becomes a cylinder with hemispherical ends of radius 1/2 caliber, and the CoM is only coincident with the CoF as long as the shape remains a cylinder with 1/2-caliber radii on each end.

Once you start to "shape" the ends of the projectile away from a cylinder with 1/2-caliber hemispheres on each end - "point" it -  the CoM moves away from the CoF. The only way to "see" the CoM superimposed on the CoF of a "pointy" bullet is to look at the bullet from the "nose" or the "butt". The more radical the change from the cylinder with hemispherical ends, the more the CoM moves away from the CoF. The farther the CoM is from the CoF, the more difficult it is to GS-ize a projectile. The only way to stabilize it is to spin it. Therefore, the farther the CoM is from the CoF, the faster the projectile has to be spun to GS-ize it.

Most bullets are "rear heavy", even "round-nosed" ones. In ballistic flight in a fluid (air), an object in motion in which the CoM is not coincident with the CoF, the CoM "wants" to be "in front". In most bullets that aren't round balls, even if they have "round noses", they have "square" butts. That moves the CoM rearward of the CoF. When the bullet doesn't spin fast enough to GS-ize it, it wants to "swap ends" so that the CoM is FORWARD of the CoF. This is the "tumbling" that a bullet does. It doesn't just "swap ends" because 1) there is some rotational momentum generated when the projectile starts to tumble, and it "over-rotates". In addition, 2) the air resistance when the bullet's travel isn't parallel with the long axis of the bullet helps "spin" it.

Paul

PS - While a sphere cannot be GS unstable, it CAN be aerodynamically unstable: A "knuckle-ball". That's why even firearms designed to shoot "round ball" are rifled. The GS minimizes, (over comes), the aerodynamic instability.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;137564All things considered, not going to find this rifle in my collection.

Paul

Phew *cough*

Ahhh thanks saved me from digging through the piled up stuff to get to the books. Another job for the warmer weather have serious sort out.:o .

So if we could spin the shot column in a shotgun shell would the pattern stay tight?

No! Just the opposite.

This is in fact done in some French "Cape" guns. I have a 16 ga SxS that is 16 bore on the left barrel and 16 gauge on the right, RIFLED barrel. I thought at first this was to shoot 16 ga "bullets", but in fact, it is for "spreading" the shot column for close shots on birds.

The reason the shot column isn't 'stabilized' is because it is not a single homogeneous 'thing'. It is many SEPARATE 'things'. Each 'thing' develops it's own angular momentum with it's own vector. Since they are not 'stuck' together, they would get (ARE) 'slung' apart by the rotational momentum generated by the rifling.

If one looks at a bullet as a bunch of 'individual' atoms, it is the atomic forces (like van der Waal's, etc.), that keep it 'stuck together'. HOWEVER, you are personally familiar with bullets coming apart when 'spun' too fast by high velocity and 'quick' twist rates. The angular momentum of each atom overcomes the attractive atomic forces that hold the atoms together, and the bullet 'comes apart'. That is precisely what would happen to a shotgun shot 'packet' because the pellets have no "atomic" forces, or anything else for that matter, holding them together.

Paul

Except in the case of a pore boy slug, that is, a shotgun shell with the shot charge bonded together with bee's wax that has been melted and poured in an open shell.
Makes some nasty close range loads!

Even easier than that is simply cutting around the top of the base, separating plastic part of shell from the base. When fired, the whole front of the shell goes out the bore. Some interesting YouTube videos of doing this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-lyk1WyyJ4

Paul

I watched one of the cut shell slugs go through an old dishwasher the other day.