One of the things I did when I was teaching my kids to "shoot to kill" was to have them shoot water-filled 1 gallon milk jugs. The reason was that what I wanted them to develop was a CONFIDENCE that they could hit what they were aiming at. With novices, and particularly kids, when they shoot at paper and don't hit EXACTLY the "X", it's a MISS in their heads. There is no confusion about a "hit" when  a high-powered rifle bullet hits a water-filled container at 100 yd. It's a "hit" no matter WHERE the bullet actually impacted. That gives them the confidence that they CAN hit a big game animal.

HOWEVER... after a hunter has developed and learned confidence, it's time to start getting realistic about precision. Too many of us just "do the math" and "call it good". While I am plenty happy "doing the math" when convenient and when actual testing isn't practical, at some point "the math" MUST be verified.

Here's the point: Repeatedly in my life, I have shot 90% of all of my target shooting at 100 yd. "Doing the math" means that you only have to "multiply by 3" to get what the group size is at 300 yd. HOWEVER... when I have actually tested "the math", more often than not the group sizes at 300 were MORE than "3 times" the size of the 100 yd groups. We could discuss the reasons why reality is different than theory, but that's not my point here. My point is reality, regardless of "the math".

This evening, I was taking an empty 2 lb 2.5 oz coffee can into my 'gun room' because I was going to find some use for it. I was looking at the plastic lid thinking that it would make a good target. I wondered how big it was, so I measured it. It was almost exactly "2 minutes of an angle at 300 yds" in diameter. Two MOA at 300 yds is exactly 6.282". The lid is 6.31" in diameter. A difference of 0.028". Hmmm, I thought. This would be a pretty good realistic 300 yd target. I should be able to hit it EVERY TIME with any of my Hunting rifles. Then I thought how A LOT of people would "do the math" based on their 100 yd groups, and assert/believe that they could/would hit the coffee can lid EVERY TIME at 300 yd.

So here's the challenge: Put a plastic coffee can lid - or suitable substitute - out at 300 yd. The best situation would be to suspend it from something so that there was nothing "around" it to record a miss. Shoot FIVE shots ONLY. Record the HITS. (If there's nothing around the coffee can lid, there are only HITS, "close" is a MISS.)

No "sighters". No "practice". Take your sighted-in hunting rifle and shoot five consecutive shots AT 300 YARDS and record the number of hits. Shoot however you want. If you want to shoot off-hand, that's fine. If you want to shoot from a standing rest, that's fine. If you want to shoot from a "bench", that's fine. If you want to shoot prone, sitting, kneeing, etc., that's fine. And not all of the shots need to be from the same stance. Just REPORT the nature of your stance when you shot. This is NOT a competition. It is a "reality check".

Let's see what reality brings to this table.

I'll leave this thread open for as long as there is interest. I'm not interested in bench rest shooter's rifles or performance, and don't want to see any of them in this thread. If you are a bench rest shooter and you feel slighted, start your own thread. (I don't know any benchresters at THL so no one should assume this is directed at "them".)

Paul

Now, find a `convenient` 300 yard range.............. in the `burbs`. 8-)

I hear ya...

Paul

My problem too, I can manage 100, just barely.

I appreciate that, because I face the same issue on my personal property. If I want to shoot at a range greater than about 60 yd, I have to "go somewhere". I understand that not everyone can 'go somewhere', but my point is that "extrapolating out", is commonly done, while actually shooting 'out there' is rarely done, and when it is, the "math" often "doesn't compute".

If I understand your many posts, Don, you don't shoot at range remotely approaching 300 yd. So this 'challenge' wouldn't be directed at you or anyone else that rarely shoots beyond 150 or 200. Nonetheless, many people, whether they shoot at game 'out there' or not, often "do the math" and act as if the results are "real". I do it. BUT... my experience is, and I DO occasionally - VERY occasionally - shoot "out there", is that the REAL precision at 'long range' is a little bit worse than the math would suggest.

This challenge is really for those that have the need or interest in ranges beyond 150-ish, BUT short of long-range big game "sniping" at 500 yd and longer.

Paul

Yep, most of my shooting is with cast bullets, large bores and moderate velocities.
I do have a .223 and a .308 and could load some j-word bullets up,(I have a few on hand), there is a commercial range, but it is 50 miles away and I believe it only has 200 yds range, max.
As interesting as this would be, I shall just have to enjoy other's results.

I smell a trip to the BLM with several coffee plastic lids or something else that's 6.31 inches in diameter.

OOH OOH OOH! I got some 3/4 AR plate that I can cut into  6.31 inch circles!!!!

RJ

Oh, boy!
Don't want to waste coffee can lids, huh?
Now carry on to the next logical step and make a self resetting target tree!

Quote from: drinksgin;125796Oh, boy!
Don't want to waste coffee can lids, huh?

Yep!

Quote from: drinksgin;125796Now carry on to the next logical step and make a self resetting target tree!

It's easier to jump in the truck and drive.

RJ

288 yards from my shooting table to the trees outback! Guess i could move the table back 12 yards!

QuoteIt's easier to jump in the truck and drive.

That is very often true.

I kinda figured you be 'up' for this, RJ.

Paul

288 is close enough.

Paul

I want to reiterate the value of having a hanging target. (Or the disk mounted on a post.) When there is nothing there but the target, there are no "close" misses. You hit it, or you miss it. There should be no "well the fourth shot was really close" comments. A miss is a miss.

This isn't a novel idea. I know of several muzzle loader "turkey shoots" in which the target is a chunk of bar-b-que charcoal. If it is hit, there's no mistaking it. There aren't any "close" misses, only misses. As 'they' say; "A miss is as good as a mile."

I think this is one of the reason people are attracted to prairie dog/gopher/ground squirrel shooting. If you hit it, it's dead. If you don't, it isn't. Miss by an inch or miss by a yard, it's still just a miss.

Paul

I have a 100mm ø Hardox500 'tester' gong coming, when I get the chance I will set up at 300 yds and have a bash!

Had a play this morning with the 17 Rem.
20gn HP @ 4200fps
The rifle had a 200 yd zero.
This was shot  off of a wobbly table. It is a 200mm armour plate disc placed at 300yds.
5 consecutive shots taken, no sighter and all at the same Point Of Aim.
Basically my calculated 'in the head' hold over was around 75mm out
Cross-hairs show my POA. Yeah I know - poor group.



The 100mm disc was boringly easy hit after a few clicks on the scope, did not bother to photograph that!