Drinksgin recently "facilitated" my acquisition of a new barrel for my old H&R Model 58 Trapper. It is 22" long and chambered in 500 S&W.




I have ordered the "parts" I need to be shooting it - dies, brass, bullet molds, etc - and so it is time to start working up loads. As many of you know, I like to start my load experiments with QuickLoad (QL hereafter).

I was surprised to find out that the SAAMI specs on max chamber pressure was 61,931 PSI for this "pistol" cartridge. That's HIGH for a handgun. Heck, it's high for a rifle. Using that figure, and dropping down 15%, QL predicts that I can get the Lee 440 grain bullet

doing about 2050 f/s.






You will notice that the muzzle energy is 4112 ft-lbs at that muzzle velocity. Unnecessarily high recoil in my opinion. I like to keep muzzle energy around that of my .338 WM - ~3400 ft-lbs. That allows me to "shoot all day" without feeling like I lost a bar fight. I can generate that kind of muzzle energy with a muzzle velocity of about 1860 f/s. Using Hodgdon's L'il Gun, I can get that MV while only generating ~39,000 PSI of pressure AND burn ALL of the powder in a 22" barrel. Here's what QL says about that:






And here are the trajectory pages. Note that it still has 1500 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yd. According to the "experts", 1500 ft-lbs is "sufficient" for moose. Works for me.




Optimal timing theory suggests that the timing "sweet-spot" for a 22" barrel should be at about the 8th node at 1.391 msec.

Since the above 1860 f/s load has a predicted exit time of 1.403 msec, the 41 grains of L'il Gun will be my starting load.

Of course this is all just so much 'paper-whipping'. It doesn't mean that reality will work out so neatly, AND once I get the cases, I'll go back and calculate the ACTUAL case capacity and recalculate all the numbers. The above numbers are derived using "factory" specs. I've not found ANY real cartridge/chamber of mine to be identical to "factory specs".

Paul

cool  coincidence.  was just about ready to throw up a little information on some .500s&w development, as well.  500's and 700's from a 10" barreled handgun.  wanted one more range session in before i posted anything.  maybe this weekend.  to this point, it's proven an easy cartridge to wring accuracy out of.  with handloads and factory stuff.  looking forward to seeing what a 22" barrel does for the round.
 
can't say as i've ever seen the .500 take a paper whip'n quite like that.  lol.  a lot of ...     data.
 
g-luck.
 
k

Too bad Lyman doesn't make more 50 cal moulds. (only a 375 grain semi wadcutter) I really like their moulds better because of their deeper lube grooves.

This one:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=82
Might be a good one, though it's not gas checked and it's "as cast" diameter might be too big to size to .501. But the lube grooves are deeeeeeep. Using #2 alloy, it might be hard enough to run at 1850 fps, but I betcha it would be hard to size to .501.

As always no pictures so we have to wait with baited breath.

RJ

I had a little 12ga H&R a while back and that thing kicked like a mule! I'm sure the big 50 will be doing the same!

QuoteAs always no pictures so we have to wait with baited breath.

What?

The Topper Model 58 was a 32", full-choked, 3" chambered 12 ga when I first got it. The first rounds I fired from it were 3" mags. It was a MULE! I cut the choke off of it and only shoot 2 3/4" shells in it now, and with an added slip-on recoil pad it's just fine. I don't expect the 500 to give me any grief at the MVs I'm contemplating.

Paul

The 'stuff' didn't come in the mail yesterday, so I decided to make one round for test-firing using a dummy I have on hand. Since I also don't have the .501 bullet molds, I started with a .458" cast bullet and ran it into the swage I made for making the jacketed bullets for the .50 Alaskan. Bullets come out of that die at 0.5105". I then cut a gas check shoulder using Drinksgin's gas-check-shoulder-cutting lathe; put a .50 cal gas check on it, and ran it through the Lee 0.501" sizing die. It came out at 0.5015" and 448 grains. Per the paper-whipping above, I used 41 grains of Hodgdon L'il Gun ahead of a Remington Large Rifle primer.



Since this was just a test-firing, and only one bullet, I didn't set up a target or the chrono. If the thing hits as hard at the 'business end' as it does at my end, it will be quite a thumper. It didn't knock my glasses off, but it wasn't exactly 'pleasant' either. The gun weighs 6 lb 12 oz. It's likely to get more weight added to it before this is 'all over'.

I can't remember what it is at the moment, but this bullet's BC is considerably better than the cast Lee 440-gr bullet's .289. That being the case, if I tolerate this level of MV/recoil, it will clearly be a good "moose gun" out to 200 yd.

More when I have target and chrono data.

Paul

Sorry, the picture of the rifle didn't load the first time I opened the thread :D

All that oomph is addicting ain't it! I'd really like to shoot that one a time or three.

RJ

The "stuff" came in today. I'll be 'out behind the garage' with the chrono and target tomorrow.

Paul

I did the measuring and calculating for the actual cases and bullets, and while I can't be sure, QL predicts that the one I shot yesterday was going 1960 f/s, not 1860. That pushes the ME up to 3750 ft-lbs. That's a "heavy" .338 load, and it felt about like that. I will be using charges that produce a MV of 1860 f/s.

With the actual case specs, the charge that is supposed to produce 1860 f/s at the muzzle is 37.5 grains of Hodgdon L'il Gun. I'll be starting with that.

The predicted max chamber pressure is only 49 kPSI and 100% of the powder is burnt in the barrel. (In fact, in 9".)

Not that it is an issue, but this reduces the predicted muzzle pressure to a very mild 2300 PSI.  I do believe that low muzzle pressures 'help' with precision. There simply isn't as much of a "blast" on the base of the bullet.

Of course the predicted timing stays essentially the same, (1.322 msec - right on node 7), because the MV is the same.

I'm hoping QL does a better job predicting MVs for this rifle and cartridge than it has for other rifles recently.

Paul

Here is a picture of the bullets and cartridges.



These bullets in pure lead and with gas check end up about 460 grains plus-or-minus 3 grains. With the 37.5 charge of L'il Gun and an actual seating depth of 0.54", QL predicts a MV of 1851 f/s at a Max chamber pressure of 56 kPSI. The pressure is up due to the continued increases in seating depth. This also moves the timing of the bullet's exit off the theoretical node.

I may reduce the seating depth to 0.395" and increase the charge to 40.1 grains. That predicts the desired 1860 f/s MV at a max predicted pressure of only 47,880 PSI. Since this is a single-shot, cartridge overall length is not too big of an issue.

I'm headed 'out back' to poke some holes.

Paul

I couldn't stand it. The above numbers 'bugged' me too much. I did some number crunching and get what I think should be a better load.



I took the cartridges seated to 0.54" apart and re-did them with the 0.395" seating depth. I also weighed each bullet at adjusted the charge so that every cartridge had a charge for which the predicted max chamber pressure was as close to the same (47,823 PSI) as I could get it. I didn't measure the individual case capacities because I don't want to put that much effort into the reloading.

No need to shoot cartridges that you don't expect to produce the "best" load. We'll see.

By the way, the lube is Lee's Liquid Alox. I'm relying primarily on the gas check to do the "un-leading" for me.

Paul

Well....

This thing is a mule. I'm going to have to do something about the recoil. First step will be to add some serious weight to the rifle. That said...

Some days you just can't 'win'. I went to all the trouble mentioned above, and "it" started when the gas checks stayed in the cases of the ones from which I pulled the 0.54"-seated bullets. Try as I might, I couldn't get them out. That meant shooting them out. I REseated the bullets that I just pulled.

Then I went through considerable machinations to get everything 'just so'. First I weighed every bullet, including the ones just pulled. Then I calculated the specific charge for each bullet weight with the goal of keeping the max pressures, and thereby the muzzle velocities, the 'same'. Only then did I charge another 5 cases and seat the bullets to 0.395".

Then I got a target set up on the frame and then shot one of the REseated 500s to make sure I was "on paper". OOFDA! I was "on paper", but it felt like I was kicked by a mule.

Then I went through all the gymnastics to get the chrono set up. Since chronographs are so #&^%&^% finicky I shot a couple of .22 RFs through it to make sure it was feeling like working today. Then I shot another one of the REseated 500s. The chrono recorded 1880 f/s. In a 460-grain bullet, that's 3610 ft-lb and in a 6 lb 12 oz rifle, 3600 ft-lb will get your attention. I wasn't too surprised. I expected those loads to be a 'bit stiff'.

All the paraphernalia seemed to be in a 'cooperative mood' so I got out one of the .395" seated cartridges and touched it off. DANG! That one was WORSE! The chrono reported 1980 f/s! No wonder it felt like I had been kicked by a mule. In a 460-grain bullet 1980 f/s generates 4004 ft-lb of energy. Definitely out of my 'comfort zone' in a six-and-three-quarter-pound rifle. I was losing the 'bar fight'.

I went ahead and shot the other four .395-seated cartridges. I'm lucky I don't have a headache. The velocities were:

1980
1978
1975
1973 and
1941

I don't know if that 1941 was real or not, but I have no reason to doubt it. WITH the 1941 shot, the average is 1969.4 f/s and the standard deviation is 16.1. That's not bad, but it ain't great. However, without the 1941 shot the average is 1976.5. That's not much different, but the standard deviation is only 3.1! Now that IS something to "write home about". That kind of standard deviation is what all the work was for in getting every bullet's weight and then making a charge specific to the bullet weight. I don't know what went "wrong" with the 1941 shot.

Let me show you the target.


That would be fairly crummy at 100 yd, worse at 50. IT WAS AT 30! The two at the bottom are the two REseated shots. The five above are the .395"-seated shots. I have no explanation for the ugly spread. The setup was stable and there were no 'called' fliers. The only obvious contributor was the open sights, but you all have seen me shoot better than this at 50 yd with open sights. Regardless the reason, this level of precision is unacceptable. Maybe it's just ANOTHER example of poor cast bullet precision. I will be using some jacketed bullets next. That said...

I have no idea why the loads were more than 100 f/s faster than they "should" have been. Clearly I have to lower the charge to get down to the 1860 f/s that I am seeking. Furthermore, I have to add as much weight as I possibly can to the rifle. As configured, this doesn't "work" for me. THAT said... I think this is a SERIOUS 'thumper'. If it can be made to shoot straight, I would have no qualms about any big game at 200 yd.

Paul

Hmmmm.

I'd also try reducing thee powder charge.

1800+ fps seems a bit fast for pure lead projectiles. You know my thoughts on Lee's shallow lube groves. My past experiences have not been good, but that has been limited to a 240 grain gas checked bullet (cast from wheel weights) in the Redhawk. Much more leading than I expected, even at only 1100-1200 fps.

Does there appear to be any leading at this point? With shooting only five shots, I wouldn't think there would be much yet. It would be interesting to see a spent bullet and see what the obturation on the bullet looks like.

IIR, it only took 6-8 rounds to get noticeable leading in my Redhawk.

When I was developing the load for my 45-70 and trying to achieve 1800 fps leading was terrible until I got below 1500 and "disappeared" at 1400. This is of course with Lyman's 457124 (cast from WWt's)  non-gas checked bullet. Also groups got smaller with less powder.

According to Hodgon's data, with a 440 grain LGC bullet,  suggested starting load is 30 grains of Lil'gun (1483 fps) and a maximum load is 35 grains (1653 fps)

This is of course comparing apples to kumquats, but I'm just throwing it out there as "fruit" for thought.

RJ

I appreciate the ideas, RJ.

There is no doubt that 1800+ is 'too fast' for pure lead - without a gas check. However, since I'm working on the premise that the gas check 'wipes' the bore after the bullet passes a given point, it seems that the softness/hardness of the bullet metal would be unimportant. (I could be wrong here, but someone will have to explain how and why.) As for something we can actually see; as far as I can see, there is "no" leading in the Model 58's bore so far.

I don't think 5 (or 8) rounds is too few to see leading. In the .50 Alaskan, there were some 2+ grains of lead left after only 5 rounds of hard-as-I-could-make-them, UN-gas-checked cast bullets. They were doing 1650 f/s.

I have given 'lubrication' a great deal of thought, and frankly, I can't see how it makes much difference in a barrel that is much longer than, at most, about 10 inches. The lube grooves get wiped of ALL lube almost instantly where ever there is a land. One reason why I 'like' Liquid Alox even though most 'experts' hate it is that it at least it covers the WHOLE bullet's bearing surface.

I think Lee's REAL (Rifling Engraved At Loading) bullet design is excellent, but they don't make it for anything but "muzzle loading" bullets.

Lowering the velocity down from 1980 f/s is absolutely going to happen. I might lower it a bit below even 1860 f/s depending on what that does to trajectory, delivered energy, and impact velocity. I'm not looking for membership in the "1000-yd Elk Club", but rather something a bit more modest even in more "normal" circles - namely a good 150 to 200yd moose/elk cartridge.

In an effort to give some meaning to the level of recoil mentioned in the above posts, I used QL's recoil 'calculator'. I don't want to open the whole can of worms of "perceived" recoil, as that 'discussion' is even worse than the "lethality" 'discussion'. However, it is possible to meaningfully discuss recoil in relative terms.

Most of my life the .30-06 has been the "standard" that Americans use to 'evaluate' and compare EVERY other firearm in the world. The reason used to be simple: "Everyone" had some experience shooting an '06. As a result, I have always used an '06 shooting a 180-grain bullet at 2800 f/s, (a "standard "factory" load), as a comparator when trying to give examples in which I was talking about an "unfamiliar" cartridge. There are finally enough other good cartidges "out there" in the American firearms lexicon that nowadays "everyone" DOESN'T necessarily have experience shooting an '06". However, at the moment, I'm not sure what that new standard might be, and, most of the folks at THL certainly ARE familiar with the '06. I may have to change my "yardstick" at some point, but for the time being, I'll stick with the '06.

Here are the mathematical comparisons between the weighed Topper Model 58 shooting a 500 S&W 460-grain bullet at 1980 f/s vs a 9.5 lb .30-06 shooting a 180-grain bullet at 2800 f/s (a rifle I have on hand and actually weighed). There are 'lots' of numbers in the tables below, and several may be unfamiliar to 'you'. The 'definitions' and names aren't particularly important in a side-by-side comparison of RELATIVE 'recoil'.

Here are the '06s numbers:


Here are the 500 S&W's numbers in the Model 58:


There are three numbers from the table I look at first:

1) Energy of Recoiling Mass - 18.54 vs 56.43. A factor of 3.04,
2) Peak Force of Gun Recoil - 4451 vs 12322. A factor of 2.77, and
3) Momentum, Total - 106.49 vs. 156.59. A factor of 1.47. (The units on the table - lb.ft/s - is wrong but immaterial as the we're comparing 'apples to apples'.)  

The "Velocity of the Gun" is also something to look at as it is the number that describes what most people refer to as "push" (low number) vs "slap" (high number). For the '06 the number is 8.89 f/s. For the 500 S&W in Model 58 it's 20.45 f/s - a factor of 2.30.

Sometimes, it's difficult to understand the magnitude of the differences when only one of two numbers being compared is from a "known". To give a better idea what those multiplication "factors" above mean, I'll include a third cartridge that most folks consider has what is "mild" recoil - a .243 Win shooting an 80-grain bullet at 3171 f/s.



Comparing the .243 and '06, here are the numbers from the categories mentioned above:
1) Energy of Recoiling Mass - 6.77 vs 18.54. A factor of 2.73,
2) Peak Force of Gun Recoil - 2394 vs. 4451. A factor of 1.86, and
3) Momentum, Total - 62.63 vs. 106.49. A factor of 1.70.
4) Velocity of the Gun - 5.44 vs 8.89. A factor of  1.63.

In the first three categories, the Topper is 'worse' than the '06 more than the '06 is 'worse' than the .243. In the "slap vs push" category, the .243 is closer to the '06 than the '06 is to the Topper Model 58 500 S&W.

That should give you some idea why I keep calling this thing a mule...

Paul

I just shoot 1700fps, with the 440 Lee, I am going to try the .50 REAL when I get a chance, but I am pretty well devoting my time to the sxs project now.
I do not think the .500 with 440gr at 1700fps  is as bad as the .45-70 with 515gr at 1800fps, which does give me a headache after about 5 or 10 shots.
What would a load for a 1400-1500 fps pig popper at 50 yds be?
4227 , H110, AA #9, 4198, lil gun?