I just purchased a marlin 94c in 357 and was wondering what I can do to improve the accuracy. Are there some basic things that guys do to make them a little smoother, what is the proper way to break in it in? Also the same things for a win 94. Thanks in advance.

put a scope on it. I know of no ways to actualy change the rifle is self but a scope can make things clearer so you could shoot better

Quote from: Oregoneric...and was wondering what I can do to improve the accuracy.

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Well...the 94C has Ballard type rifling and that would handle lead pretty good, I'm thinking.  And, I can say from much personal experience, the 94 Winchester handles lead very well too.  The rifles themselves do not need modification (other than sights) and are designed to be about as smooth as they can be.  I would seriously suggest you not try to 'tighten up' the Winchester.  It is loose for a very good reason.

I have owned many Winchester lever actions and have taken them apart down to the last screw...I've also modified them from one cartridge to another for customers.  When you fully understand the mechanism of these lever actions you will see that, for all their simplicity, they are truly sophisticated.  Kind of like the 1911 Colt...not much room for improvement.

The use of home made (cast lead) bullets has enormously enhanced my shooting and hunting experience.  It makes me sad to know that there are so many shooters and hunters who have not taken advantage of this side of the firearms life style.

I've developed many cast bullet loads for handguns and rifles...the journey to the ultimate accuracy for any particular cast lead load is more interesting, to me, than the same journey made with jacketed bullets and a micrometer.

Well Jay, I guess that makes it kinda simple. I almost bought the 94, but while working the action in the store I pinched a finger under the lever as it closed and decided that if I was prone to do that I should go with the marlin. You aren't a fan of the micro-groove rifling? I am not sure which is better, or if it matters, I am sure that the ballard style will work out. How bout breaking it in  clean after every shot for first 5 and then do it again or.....? thanks

Quote from: OregonericYou aren't a fan of the micro-groove rifling? I am not sure which is better, or if it matters, I am sure that the ballard style will work out. [/size]
I really cannot say anything bad about micro-groove rifling.  I prefer the Ballard type but I have gotten some impressive results with lead in the micro-groove system...although I was told at the time that it wouldn't work well.  Now I've only shot one lever with micro-groove and it was in .44 Magnum.  It shot very well with H110 and the Keith style gas-check bullet.

How bout breaking it in clean after every shot for first 5 and then do it again or.....?
There was a time that we put a little lapping compound in the lube for about 10 cast bullets.  We figured that was enough to 'take the edge off' instead of the hand lapping.

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I dunno big O...many of the rifles I've made have shot well right from the start.  I haven't had to worry about it with singleshots for some  time as I made a trade a number of years ago for lapped, octagonal barrels to fill my needs for the number of actions I have left.

The two .45 Colt 94s I've 'worked up' haven't seemed to have any problem.  Have you heard any new info on lapping in barrels?

Get a peep sight!;)  I just obtained one for my 94, and it improved accuracy heaps. My post on it should be at the bottom of the page, theres some pics of it too.

Chris

I have a 1894c 357 I find it very accurate. I pit a lever scout base on it topped offf with a leupold 1.75-5x scope on it & have killed several running deer with it. I also have two other 1894cl rifles. In 32- 20 &25-20. Both are very accurate for lever guns. I actually cut a playing card in half with the 32-20 at about 15yds offhand. i Lve all my marlin rifles.

Here is an interesting piece I found on "accurising" lever actions. Looks likie a lot more trouble than working with a bolt?
 
C
SOMETHING OLD, SOMETHING BLUE, SOMETHING NEW...
They all can be made to shoot MOA...
 
LEVERGUNS
 
ACCURACY SYSTEMS
 
Things needed:

• a drill with at least a 1/4 inch bit
  
• a piece of hardened 1/4" drill rod
  
• fine grit sandpaper, gritcloth is better
  
• a piece of largest diameter wooden dowel that will fit in your drill's chuck
  
• hacksaw with fine blade
  
• round file fine tooth 1/4 inch body
  
• fast setup epoxy, for steel and wood
  
• vise on a workbench
  

Gaining accuracy in a leveraction rifle is really not much different than doing it in a bolt action. The principles are the same. There is no mystery, it is just that most folks take if for granted that 3 to 5 inches at 100 yards is normal and you have to live with it. That is utter nonsense....first of all on today's market there is not one brand of leveraction, one style, or one make that won't generally shoot into less than 2 inches with the right ammo. Some few individual guns (lemons) may go into larger groups...but bolt actions have the same problems with the unusual stinker in a group.
 
In the 1930s leverguns were tested with10 shot groups with target scopes of the day, and even then groups hovered over the 1 1/2 to 2 inch group mark.. since then leverguns have been getting better and better. Today USRAC makes the barrel and the chamber and the rifling all at once....out of the box my 356XTR went into less than 1 inch at one hundred yards. And with a hard cast 220 grain bullet or a Speer 180 spirepoint and Reloader 7 powder my 200 yard groups were under 2 inches. I'm not even going to touch it for better accuracy except for trigger work, they all need trigger work, and floating the barrel.


   Say What? Float a levergun barrel?

 

You bet! First lets go down the list of thing that affect the accuracy of the leverguns ......

 
Numero uno is the cleaning wear at the muzzle of these fine guns. When I clean a levergun I take a cut-off case like the shoulder and neck section of a .30-30 and put it in the muzzle of my .32 Specials like a funnel... that saves the crown from cleaning rod wear. A tight necked .30-30 case section will do the .30-30. I use a fired and slightly opened .32 Special case section for the .356's and .358's, a fired .358 section for the .375 .. you get the idea. If the wear is already there, then the gun has to be recrowned. That is a job for the gunsmith. Tell him to go back as far as necessary ... I like an 11 degree crown from the bore out, instead of the normal rounded shape. The 11 degree is a target crown cut.
 
I know a few fella's that really keep their guns in fine shape. Always cleaning and tightening screws and such ... nothing wrong with all that if you are careful about some unexpected problems. the cleaning wear we already spoke of .. but tightening barrel bands and the screw at the end of the loading tube can lead to inaccuracy. Have you ever heard of the problems bolt action rifles have if the a hunk of wood INSIDE the forearm presses against the barrel? It causes a pressure point, and as the barrel heats from firing and expands it moves more away from that touch point, giving lousy groups at the target. The same idea holds true for barrel bands and for that first front screw in the tube into the underside of the barrel behind the crown.
 
Let's take that screw first ... turn your rifle over and look at it. Just a hole through the tube and a screw into the barrel at the crown. Simple. If the tube is too tight a fit for the barrel it becomes a pain in the rear end of accuracy. There has to be room for expansion of the barrel, and at the muzzle the most movement occurs. If it's tight the tube pulls down on the barrel as it heats up and stringing of the shots is the usual result.
 
It's easy to fix. A gunsmith can cut a dovetail cut into the bottom of the barrel right where the screw hole is...he then puts a piece of hardened dovetailed steel into that cut. The steel has been drilled and tapped for a larger hole and screw....the hole in the tube is cut a little larger than the new screw, and small, thin washer of polyethylene is placed between the barrel bottom and the tube on that screw. When it is put together that tube hole and washer gives a little expansion room at the tube hole. Now it might seem that you can get away with just enlarging the barrel screw hole and rethreading, opening the tube hole and putting a larger screw directly into the barrel and cut out all that time-consuming dovetail cutting and fitting. NO!
 
The larger screw sets up much more impact in the larger diameter new screw hole... every time the rifle is fired....from the tube bump at firing. And after two or three score rounds of smart ammo, the hard front screw rips the softer threads out of the barrel hole. But a hardened hunk of dovetail steel set in place, drilled and tapped, lasts forever. Believe it or not the tube end and the screw are harder than the barrel. The barrel is tough, not hard...if it were hard it would be brittle and couldn't take the pressure. Now see why gunsmiths charge so much? Their knowledge has to be very vast in many fields, good ones are hard to find.
 
Next is the barrel bands ...their only function should be cosmetic. They were there in 1885 so they should be there today. That's part of the reasoning for owning a levergun...it's like yesterday in looks, but you want it to shoot like today. I take the bands off.... put two thin blocks of wood in my vise and lock the band into it tight so that the part that grips the barrel is up and clear to work on. Take a dowel stick that fits into the chuck of your drill, with a hacksaw put a deep cut down one end through the middle. Tear a piece of fine grit paper in a strip and slip it into the cut in the dowel so that when it is locked in the chuck and turns, the rough side is exposed. Put that dowel and grit paper inside the band ring and turn the drill on....that will take metal out of the inside of the ring. It's a cut and try game. The idea is to relieve the barrel loop enough so that when the band is replaced and tightened down on the tube it doesn't touch the barrel...just looks like it does. Don't worry, the screw at the tube in the front will keep the tube in place.
 
Next is a lot of work, about an hour, but worth it. Take the forearm off, and with a hunk of broom handle with sandpaper, relieve it so it won't touch the barrel when put back on the rifle. How does the forearm stay in place you wonder? Easy, but you do this next step carefully.
 
Leaving the loading tube out of the gun, hold the forearm in place against the barrel....then from the forearm front, place a mark about two inches back on the forearm and the barrel. I use a felt tip pen. Then lay the forearm aside for a moment. Putting a heavy cloth in the vise, lock the rifle upside down in the vise by the action. (don't squeeze like you are tying up the Battleship New Jersey, firm is fine)
 
At the felt tip mark on the barrel, go to the bottom side of the barrel and cut a groove across the bottom with the round file. Go only as deep as one-third of the file at it's deepest point. Be sure this is at the same point on the forearm....replace the rifle barrel in the vise with the forearm. At the corresponding mark on the forearm cut a groove in the bottom of the barrel-well, the same depth as the barrel. These two groove together will allow the piece of drill rod to fill them. (cutting the groove inside the forearm can be with your electric drill and small round nose router bit, sold at Ace Hardware type stores) When that drill rod is epoxied in place on the forearm... it will fit into the barrel groove and hold the forearm in place at recoil.
 
The take your hunk of drill rod and cut a piece that will fit the cross groove in the forearm...fit it to the rifle to be sure the two grooves and the drill rod piece line up... you will most likely have to take a little more wood or steel out to get the 1/4 inch drill rod to fit. Once you have a firm but not tight fit, then epoxy the drill rod into the forearm. When dry reassemble the rifle. You have relieved all the pressure points. Because the drill rod is at the chamber end, where it is thick and less movement occurs, it doesn't affect the accuracy but holds the forearm in place.
 
The last accuracy item is important....no accuracy is worth anything if the trigger is rough and gritty on the let-off. It is worth the cost of a GOOD gunsmith to tune the trigger and set it at around 3 1/2 pounds. That makes the difference between a snap shot hitting a bouncing deer and not hitting .... it really does when you have practiced with the new trigger. Even a heavy trigger that breaks CLEAN is better than a gritty light let-off.
 
(from Paco Kelly's LEVERGUNS - An American Heritage, chapter 23)

Since I am more or less responsible for this thread getting started, let me pose my problem.
 
I have a Rossi Mod 92 in 357 Mag.  Initially I used it with open sights.  Problem was those really rudimentary sights.  The adjustments aren't fine enough to set the rifle exactly. between two settings (clicks on the height adjustment) the rifle will either shoot high or low.  The solution was to use a bit of Kentucky elevation to correct this (i.e. set it to shoot slightly low with a fine bead and then take a slightly less fine bead).  This worked well when you could fire a couple of "warm-up" shots every time at the range.  It wasn't conducive to great confidence in the hunting field though.
 
For some reason, it is difficult to obtain replacement sights and they are expensive so I decided to fit a scope. The model 92's are top eject and are therefore drilled & tapped for a sideways mount which I didn't like.  I wanted a small scope mounted scout style in front of the action.
 
I had a gunsmith machine a fitting which screws onto the bbl just in front of the action.  The problem is that accuracy went to hell.
 
The mount is an aluminum mount and it is my belief that the heat from the bbl causes it to distort affecting accuracy (this is supported by the fact that the first two shots from the cold bbl can be placed neatly but thereafter the groups open up significantly).
 
Machining a steel mount will be costly and I don't know if it will solve the problem.  Any suggestions would be welcomed.
 
C

Jay Edwards,
I am wondering what you think (or any gunsmith on the forum) of fire lapping the barrel.  I have not done it nor do I need to, but I have heard of some folks that needed to to gain accuracy.  Their reasoning is that during the manufacturing process, barrels are stamped with printing, flats, etc are milled, all affecting the ID of the barrel/rifling.  The same folks say that fire lapping carefully will remove the choke-points in the barrel.  I have read about the process extensively at the
Beartoothbullets.com site and it makes sense to me although is scares me because if you go too far, you are all done and have to get the barrel replaced.  The stuff I've read says you "Slug" the barrel with the appropriate size lead sinker and mic it to find the choke point, noting where it was the tightest in the barrel.  Then you load the special bullets with the lapping compound on them, fire the loads ( only 2 or 3 at a sitting) and slug the barrel again and mic it.  Would this kind of a process help our friend with his accuracy problem?
 
All the best,
Brian

I reckon I'm not against it or for it.  There have been tremendous groups shot without firelapping (or regular lapping for that matter.)  It's kinda like 'freefloating' barrels...some really believe in it but they do not shoot any better than some that have not been 'freefloated'.

There is simply no telling when a gilt edged barrel will appear.  Yes...you can improve the average groups by various quality controll methods...and you will pay for it.  But if there were a guaranteed method of making a 'laser straight shooting' barrel...you can just bet everyone would demand it.

There are many measures you can take to build a really great target rifle...but is that the same rifle you would take into the field?

Believe me, with respect to all concerned...it is my personal opinion that most shooters overlook the most essential part of this whole exercise.  Making themselves into riflemen.

CAfrica,

In my opinion you probably have a pressure point problem with the scope being mounted on the barrel. Aluminum distorts & retorts heat, so I doubt it is a heating problem. It could just be that the scope causes another couple of pressure points on the barrel that might affect accuracy. Interesting though, I've never heard of anyone putting a scope on a '92 action. I would think best option would be an old "side mount" scope sytem, such as they used on the older '94's.

Let us know what fixes the problem....OK?

Tool Dude,

I think that an extreme process like you described above might benifit a competition benchrest shooter that has a rifle, scope, ammo geared towards putting 10 rounds in a VERY tight group. The accuracy factor with lever guns is not so much a factor of them not shooting well, but more of a factor of having antiquated sight systems on them. I shot 3-4" groups with my Win. 94 at 100 yards on a good day....I put a 6X tactical scope on top, & the rifle instantly went to 1 1/2" groups at 150 yards....It was the scope that did it.
As far as shooting hole-in-hole groups with any Marlin, or Winchester type lever gun, I don't think that is much of a possibility....
My Savage 99 .243 will put 3 shots touching at 100 yards on a good day, but it mostly shoots a one inch group. Which is very acceptable for a hunting rifle.

Rockinbbar

As you probably could see in my post, the thought of firelapping scares me, but some people swear by it.  My GS shoots really well, so its not even a remote possibility that I would try it :)
Thanks guys.

Tool Dude;
I fire lapped the barrel on my inherited 1900 '94, .32 Win Sp., but the poor thing may not have been cleaned in 50 or 60 years when I got it, could not even see rifling in the barrel, spent about 10-12 hours cleaning with brass brush, several brands of bore cleaner and finally 20 rounds of fire lapping followed by another 2 hours of brushing and cleaning, finally got to where I could see the rifling, took it out and shot it, factory sights are really a bad type for me, narrow v front and very small rear v, so I was up and down the paper, but they were in 1" sideways at 50 yds.
I would do it as a last resort, but not on a barrel that shoots decently.
Don  :D

drinks gin, the poor accuracy & keyholeing you decibe with your 32 is a very common occurance with that caliber. 32 barels have a 1-16" twist, and when they get worn even a little, the accuracy becomes horrible. the slower twist does not stabilize the bullet once the rifling isn't as sharp. So I would say your barrel is "worn out"