Range Report May 5th, 2010

Started by gitano, May 05, 2010, 07:56:53 PM

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gitano

Well I finally "made" it happen. Man! what a hassle!
 
I'll offer a taste of what's to come, then relate the saga.
 
As some of you know, I have an armload of unfired rifles purchased over the last year that needed testing at least. Between the weather, the darkness, and work, I haven't been able to get to the range since I don't know when. I made a list of rifles that needed shooting, then shortened the list to those that REALLY needed shooting. I was able to get the list down to 11. They were:
 
1) The Savage 110 re-barreled to .338 Federal (AKA .338-08),
2) A Remington 660 in .350 Rem Mag, :D
3) One of the Remington Classic 8x57s, :D
4) .303 Savage, :D
5) Browning Low Wall in .44 Rem Mag, :D
6) Ruger Carbine in .44 Rem Mag, :D
7) Sht LE .22 Trainer, :D
8) Sht LE .22 Trainer, :D
9) BSA 12-15 .22, :D
10) SMLE .303 Brit,
11) SMLE /303 Brit, Long Branch.
 
So, I got everything organized for a day at the range and took off, heading the 26 miles to the Birchwood Recreation and Shooting Park. I got there and checked in, bought some targets, got a target stand and headed to the benches. I started unloading my pickup and... I had left all the ammo at home.:Banghead: (Didn't you do that recently BH?) I was DETERMINED to shoot today, so I packed everything up, drove the 26 miles BACK home, and got the ammo.
 
Once I got back to the range things started looking up. I intended to shoot the .22s first, then move on to sighting in those rifles fitted with 'scopes and then shooting the open-sighted rifles to see where they hit, and wrap up with some 100-yard 'plinking'.
 
The good news is that I got to shoot all of the rifles except one (I'll get to why that one didn't get shot later) at 50 yds, and most of them were a real pleasant surprise. HOWEVER, about 2 hours into the session, people started yelling to stop shooting and then telling us we had to leave. A brush fire had started behind one of the ranges' butts. The total area burning was about a 10' x 10' square. Good grief! The fire department arrived with THREE FIRE ENGINES, they got out in the party suits and started ORDERING people to pack up their weapons and "evacuate" the park "for safety reaons". I'm telling you, there were some SERIOUSLY PO'd people, and I was one of them. I dont' think I've ever seen something so incredibly blown out of proportion NOR a bigger bunch of jackasses than these firemen were. They REALLY ticked A LOT of people off.
 
So, while I didn't get to run things out to 100 yds, I did at least have a good short-range session that answered some important questions and clarified several 'things'.
 
I'll start with the .22s first.
 
I knew the BSA 12-15 was a 'shooter', but I wanted to see what it could do at 50 yds from a bench. Here's 10 shots with some cheapo Remington ammo:
 

 
Not great, but not bad. I'm sure I had better shooting with some other ammo I used when I shot the rifle in my back yard, but I'm satisfied with this for now.
 
Next was the "light" (colored - beech wood) Sht LE .22 Trainer. I didn't have high expectations from this rifle, being a trainer and not a target rifle. As you can see in the picture below, it wasn't bad, but wasn't great either. Again, I think different ammo will produce better results. Maybe halve the group size. The sights are a big issue. I wish it had a "V" rear sight instead of a LARGE aperture. A "V" or smaller aperture would produce smaller groups for sure.
 

 
Next was the "dark" (walnut) stocked Sht LE .22 Trainer. It did about the same as the beech-stocked one.
 

 
Next came the 8x57 REmington Classic. Some of you may recall that this rifle has an extraordinarily short throat. As such, I was hoping I would finally get an 8x57 to shoot the 125-grain bullets I wanted it to. It did. While this is only 50 yds, I like it! and I LOVE that Simmons 'scope with the side focus.
 

 
I had some 180s and some 220s also loaded, but I didn't get a chance to shoot them.
 
Next was the Remington 660 chambered in .350 Rem Mag. I wasn't too excited by the .350 RM chambering, but I got it for a song ($350 plus $38 shipping). I just saw one sell on GA for $800. This one appeared unfired, but I doubt that was actually true. I loaded up some Hornady 180s (remember, I like light-for-caliber bullets) with a "low" Optimal Barrel Timing charge, and a "high" OBT charge. This rifle has only open sights. These groups are FINE by me with open sights and my old eyes.
 
The "low" charge is the lower 3-shot group, and the "high" charge is the 3-shot group in the upper right:

 
I'm quite certain that if I put a 'scope on this rifle it will shoot nice small groups at 100 yds.
 
Next was the 110 Savage with the new .338 Federal (.338-08) bull barrel on it. I was really looking forward to seeing how this rifle was going to shoot. As I always do, I planned to bore sight it. As usual, I lined up the bore with the bull, and looked through the 'scope to align it with the bore. The crosshairs were at least 3' to the right of the target.:stare:
 
When I mount a new 'scope, I always run the adjustment knobs to the stops, counting the number of full revolutions needed to go from one stop to the other. Then I run it back half way so that it is centered. I had done this with this 'scope. I didn't think I had enough adjustment to make it all the way back to the bull, and I was right. I was a good foot away when I ran out of adjustment. :frown Didn't seem right, so I removed the 'scope and loosened the rings then retightened the rings and remounted the 'scope. No joy. In the final analysis, something is WAY off. It could be:
 
1) The 'scope, (I doubt it),
2) The reciver, (not likely but possible),
3) The rings, (more possible), or
4) The bases, (most likely).
 
I'm going to eliminate the potential offenders one by one and find out what the source is and fix it. The only really BAD one would be the receiver being drilled not straight. That fix is the most difficult, but not TOO bad. Burris rings would likely handle the problem.
 
Disappointing that I didn't get to shoot it. Actually, I did shoot it twice to try to "fake it" and see if I could aim "off" and still hit where I wanted to. It was too "off". It wasn't worth wasting the bullets and powder.
 
Next was the .303 Savage. I loaded up three bullets: 110s, 130 HPs, and one 150 Ballistic Silvertip. I figured that the rifle was "made" for a 150, but I wanted to try some of the lighter bullets to see how they did precision-wise. The .303 Savage case isn't a large-capacity case by any means, and I wanted to see if the light bullets would "do".
 
In this picture, the 3 shots in the center bull (one right next to the .350 RM group), are the 110s. The four circled to the left are the .130 HPs. Then there is the single 150 Combined Technology Ballistic Silvertip just below the 130 group.

 
It doesn't look like the 110s are gonna "make the cut", but I think the 130s will. I may get some round-nosed (gack!) 150s and see how they fare. Since this rifle is a lever action, I was hoping it might "work" for my left-handed daughter. The ballistics on the 150s and above are not impressive from this case, and I'm not gonna 'push' this 100plus-year-old rifle. I suspect that the 150 CTBSTs will do well. Maybe we'll see next range session.
 
Next up was the Browning Low Wall chambered in .44 Rem Mag. I would have liked it better in .44-40 Winchester, but not the $400 more it would have cost for that chambering. I loaded some of the new "LeverLution" soft-tipped 265s. As you can see, not particularly impressive. I'm not sure what's wrong. Could be bullet; could be charge; could be sights; could be rifle. I think I am going to have to "focus" on this rifle if I'm going to get it to shoot.
 

 
Next was the Ruger Carbine chambered in .44 Rem Mag. I've wanted one of these since the day they first came out. Again, I got this one, used but in excellent condition, for $450 plus shipping. Much less than they are generally "going for" on the auction sites. Here again, I'm not happy with this group. I'm not sure I can make the groups too much smaller, but I'm CERTAIN that the rear aperture is partially at fault. It has already been removed.
 

 
The group isn't as bad as it looks. The top shot was at the upper bull. I forgot which one I was amining at. If you make the adjustment, the group isn't too bad. Still, I would like it much better at 50 yds.
 
Next were the "ugly" guns - the SMLEs. Truth be told, after shooting these rifles, I can see why people like them. I planned a "work out" for these two rifles. I had some 174-grain Hornady RNs (gack!) and some Sierra 150 spitzers. For each bullet and each rifle I had multiple powders and multiple OBT charges. I started out with the 174-grainers with charges of 40.4 grains of I3031 and 42.05 grains of X4064. Here's the I3031 group from the non-Long Branch:
 

 
There are only three shots in the group because I used two to figure out that it was shooting about 6" high.
 
Here is the 5-shot Long Branch group:

 
I like 'em both. And what "sweethearts" to shoot. I was really 'annoyed' that I didn't get to test the rest of the powders and charges at 100 yds.:stare: Nonetheless, these two show real potential. We'll just have to wait for the next range session.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

22hornet

Thats quite a days shooting there Paul! :sweatdrop:
Hope you had fun.
I had to look twice at the groups you were getting with your 660! Mighty fine!
I'm suprised that the SMLE trainers didn't shoot better. They have quite a reputation for accuracy.
But I'm glad you have "seen the light" as to the No. 4's. They are lovely arn't they? And good shooters too.:biggthumpup:

Now you have some bugs to look into and iron out in your other rifles. I'm looking forward to seeing the progress...

"Belief:" faith in something taught, as opposed to "knowledge:" which is awareness borne of experience.

LvrLover

That 303 Savage will do anything a 30-30 will and there ain't much a 30-30 wont do if you know what you are about. It was a 99 Savage in 303 that got me going on those guns. It has accounted for a lot of venison in our family.
"Live free or die: death is not the worst of evils." General John Stark

Alboy

Nice write up.
 
Regretfully dingle berries exist in all locals.
Alboy
BLACKPOWDER WATERFOWLER
KATY TEXAS PRAIRIE
 
THIS TOO SHALL PASS

gitano

I'm suprised that the SMLE trainers didn't shoot better. They have quite a reputation for accuracy.
The group sizes were large for sure due to the large rear apertures. The non-Long Branch aperture is so large that I can see both wings of the front sight in it! I think the ammo was another reason for the large groups. I know I did better when I shot the BSA in my back yard than it did today, so I'm assuming the Sht LEs would have too.

But I'm glad you have "seen the light" as to the No. 4's. They are lovely arn't they?
Well... Let's not get carried away. ;)

And good shooters too.:biggthumpup:
THAT I can't argue with. More to the point, they are pleasant to shoot. Of course these weren't "full house" loads either.

That 303 Savage will do anything a 30-30 will and there ain't much a 30-30 wont do if you know what you are about.
No argument from me on that account, LvrLover. However, the .30-30 isn't exactly an "Alaskan" cartridge. Of course it's fine for Sitka black-tails, but it's a little 'short' for caribou, and a tad 'weak' for moose. It'd be fine for black-bear within 150 yds, but I see more black bears beyond 150 that I do short of 150. The point being, I agree with you about its use and application. Therefore, it needs a bullet that 1) shoots straight, and 2) delivers as much energy as the case is reasonably capable of.

Regretfully dingle berries exist in all locals.
Ain't it the troof!

I'm going to try to get back to the range as soon as I can, but... My oldest comes home from college on Saturday; Sunday is Mother's Day; Tuesday my youngest graduates from HS; Wednesday is my youngest's B'day; the next Sunday is my oldest's B'day; and my oldest heads for Spain for a month of foreign exchange study the week after that. So... I don't know when I will be able to get back to the range, but I will as soon as I can.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

drinksgin (deceased)

Paul, I have never seen factory .303 S. ammo with anything but 190gr rn's.
Hunters in the N.E. used the 190 for moose and bear and were quite happy with it until magnumitis struck in the '50's.
I load mine with a 200gr gc with 35gr BLC2 for 1990fps and have no trouble signs.
A factory 190gr. rn. gave 1850 fps in my 20" carbine.
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Brithunter

Yes Gitano thank you for reminding me of that little age related forgetfulness :o .

I am off to the range tomorrow not only to shoot but collect 170 rounds of Belgian Sniper grade 7.62x51 Nato ammo that goes with the P-H 1200TX I am getting. Which reminds me I have to sort out what I am going to take and shoot whilst I am there.

Only 25 miles :stare:  your lucky the 75M range at the club is 40 miles from here :help:  and with fuel not at £1.21 ($1:81US) per litre I have not been for several weeks now if I use the Jeep it uses around 16 litres for the trip which means that fuel along is about £20 for the trip. I will have to steal Mother Rover as that does about 40 to the gallon and will cost about £11 in fuel.
Go Get them Floyd!

gitano

Interesting info there, Don. I thought for sure the .303 Savage was "150-grain cartridge". That said, I'm not surprised at the 190/200 grain references. Neither am I surprised at the uses you mention. Nonetheless, it wouldn't be a cartridge I would CHOOSE to take moose or caribou or sheep or goat or brown bear hunting if I had another choice. There isn't much any CF cartridge can't do if held within certain constraints. In my opinion, for novice ADULT hunters, the fewer constraints the weapon places on their hunting, the greater the probability of their "success".
 
I figured I'd be hearing about European gas prices. You have my sympathy, BH. Not only for gas prices, but for having to drive 40 miles one way, AND put up with "range officers". The range at which I shoot is an excellent range, one which both the military and the police use for training. However, there isn't a fascist range officer "running" the place. This place has got to be 40 years old, and there's never been an "accident". Although, one time some idiot didn't wait for me to return from the butts before he decided to commence firing. (We're both lucky I didn't have a weapon in hand with which I could have returned fire.:stare: ) To add insult to injury, before the dust cleared, I was accused (by the guy that takes the money and 'oversees' the range), of being the one that fired while the other guy was downrange! Kinda chapped my cheeks dontchaknow...
 
Anyway, I do not wish to trade places with you, BH. Not for distance, not for "petrol" and not for "range officers".
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

drinksgin (deceased)

A person on another forum said his dad and uncle liked the .303 S because the 190gr bullet would go through a moose or bear, front to back, back to front, side to side or on an angle, leaving either a dead animal or one leaking blood all over every where so as to be easy to trail.
I got the impression his relatives were not too picky about waiting for a good shot, he did say northern Minnesota was pretty brushy with willow and alder jungles and the shooting opportunities were sorta short time ones.
I have an idea something like a .270 W. might not do well there.
I did try a Rem. 150gr PSP, 34gr BLC2 gave 2040fps, should do well in open hunting areas.
I cannot decide which carbine I like best, '92, .44-40 or '99 .303, either will kill just about anything at 125-150 yds.
The .44-40 was used some on bison at the 1200fps BP original loading and was the favorite deer and black bear choice for 30-40 years until the .30-30 class became the top choice.
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Brithunter

Ahhh Gitano,

      I'll try to remember not to gripe about the fuel prices :o in future.

As for the range well it's a rebuilt Airforce one it was used for testing the guns as well as small arms and the farm land surrounding it was used as a bombing practice range during WW2 they still plough them up every so often. I will ask if I see him tomorrow when the range was first built as I believe it predates WW2. It's been a club run range since the early 1960's at least. Oh as it's only about 6 miles from the Counties Police HQ they hire it for practice. Sloppy lot we often find live rounds left by them and they're supposed the clean up and check the range after use ........................................ fat chance of that they often just leave the brass where it falls too.

Meanwhile I am taking the follwing in the morning:-

P-H 1200C 25-06
Sporterised Swedish mauser 6.5x55 (of course)
P-H Supreme No4 sporter .303
P-H 1200V 6mm rem

The .303 Supreme I am setting up a scope on it and trying a new one out and I also have a used 4x40 to try on it too. Should be fun :biggthumpup: . I just collected 576 Rnds of HXP 83 from storage so am ok for tomorrow :D .
Go Get them Floyd!

Paul Hoskins

Paul, your range trip reminds me of the time I drove 40 miles or so to groundhog hunt & found out when I arrived at my destination I had left all my ammo at home. Both rifles were wildcats. No chance of buying factory fodder anywhere. I wasn't happy with myself either.    ......Paul H

gitano

#11
Well... I got tired of not being able to use the range generally when I want to, so I bit the bullet as it were, and bought a membership. I am now an "Exclusive Park Member". What that means is that I can use the range even on days when it's closed and any day 'til 10 pm.
 
The range closes to the public at five pm but since there is plenty of light for range shooting at 10 pm, I can stay for some longer, un-bothered shooting. Also, to my surpirse, I can come and shoot a round of skeet or trap for $5. Normally it's $30 a round. I'll be doing more skeet shooting. :)
 
Now that I can go to the range when it's convenient to me, I should be able to get some more range time in. And that's a "good thing".
 
I'm gonna try to remember my ammo from now on...
 
Paul
 
PS - Here's a google Earth view of the BRSP from 3500 ft. The 300 yd range is in the lower left, then the 200, two 100s and four pistol ranges. The trap (4) and skeet (5) ranges are about in the middle of the image. It's a nice place.
Be nicer than necessary.

gitano

QuoteI just collected 576 Rnds of HXP 83 from storage so am ok for tomorrow :D .
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Don't forget it... ;)

I'm as interested in that No4 Brit as I am in any of the others. Not owning any, I haven't paid more than passing attention to your loads for your .303 Brits, but now that I'm shooting them I have a reason to. If I remember correctly, your HXP 83s are milsurp ammo, but when not using that, what are your loads for your 175-ish bullets? Actually, I'm more interested in the velocities than the charges. I have a feeling - but I could be wrong - that these milsurp rifles will shoot better when they're using middle-of-the-road MVs as opposed to hotrod loads. Since I have a grand total of about 20 rounds of .303 Brit experience, I have no idea whether that assumption is correct or not.

The loads I made up for the above range session were first, OBT loads, and second, "mild" and "warm" loads based on hitting the OBT node. They both were VERY pleasant to shoot, and if the limited sample size is any indicator, the "warm" charge, (really a middle ground load), shot the best. I'd like to stay in that "comfort zone" if it continues to shoot straigtht.

By the by... Keep your eyes peeled for incoming freight.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

Brithunter

Gitano the best shooting bullet that I found was the Hornady 174 Grn RN on top of 38.4 grains of H4895. I used a CCI200 primer but it does not seem to matter much with this load. Through a 1916 BSA sporterised by P-H to Supreme spec with a 3x32 scope at 100 yards all the holes very, so very, closely spaced that it looked like one hole from a distance but on closer inspection it was not. It was certainly under MOA though :biggthumpup: the target was a military one as we were on Ash Ranges so i couldn't keep it :(  . I passed the info on to several Le Enfield shooters and all have found it to shoot well. Sorry as I don't have a chronograph i have no idea as to velocity :shy: .

The HXP is Greek Milsurp as is said to be some of the best. The 69 is better in my opinion than the 83 :greentongue: . The cases are brilliant and boxer primed. I have yet to have one fail and I have not counted how many times some have been reloaded. I have also shortened some and re-formed them to 6.5x53R with no problems, excellent brass all round.

The 180 grain Speer does not shoot so well :confused: .

The Hornady 150 Grn SP also shoots quite well but the loads I have for that were developed in the P-14 based BSA so they're a bit warm for a No1 or No4 in my opinion. However the load works a treat of Fallow deer:biggthumpup: . It was using  Nobel Sport Vectan SP7 powder.

I shot some 43 vintage MkV11 yesterday and it gouped in just over an 1 1/4" at 75 metres that was trying out that Redhead scope I was sent after the hassles witht eh Simmons. Not sure if I like it or not :undecided: . Boiled out the barrel once I got home.
Go Get them Floyd!

gitano

Thanks, BH. The 38.4xH4895 will get me close enough on an estimate of muzzle velocity.
 
The only 174-grain RN Hornady I can find is one with a diameter of .312" (I am using that one too). I haven't slugged the bores of these two rifles, so I'll have to do that I suppose. However, I wasn't disappointed in the results I got. I am solidly of the mind that "small" bullets in "big" bores yield VERY large groups, and while the above groups aren't "one-holers", I suspect the bores of these rifles  aren't "large" as .303s go.
 
QuickLoad puts the muzzle velocity of your above load at ~2300 f/s at a max pressure of about 34,000 PSI. That's certainly a "mild" load according to the CIP pressure rating of 52,929 PSI.
 
My "mild" charges for the 174-grain Hornady were 38.0 grains of I3031, with an estimated muzzle velocity of 2450 f/s and an estimated chamber pressure of 37,500 PSI, and 42.05 grains of X4064 for an estimated muzzle velocity of 2490 f/s and pressure of 40,660 PSI. I have to ammend my comment about the "warm" loads shooting best. The charge that shot the "best" was the "warmer" charge of the "mild" loads - 42.05 grains of x4064. However, the fact is, that was from a different rifle, and it was probably more a matter of rifle than charge.
 
I didn't get to shoot the actual "warm" loads of each powder, which were: 44.01 grains of X4064 with an estimated MV of 2590 f/s and an estimated max pressure of 46,500 PSI, and 40.02 grains of I3031 with estimated MV of 2560 f/s and estimated max pressure of 43,800 PSI.
 
As I said above, all of the above charges are the charges that generate exit times at Optimal Barrel Timing nodes. The step up in charge from "mild" to "warm" - about 2 grains for each - is the step necessary to get from one timing node to the next. I will shoot the "warmer" charges at the next range session to see how they shoot, but I will be 'leaning' towards using the milder charges. The "warm" ones will REALLY have to shoot measurably better to get the nod.
 
Thanks for the info.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

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