You probably remember gitano's thread on using LFC projectiles in his .308.
I took alot of this on board and decided to give it a go myself.
 
My usual hunting load for my .308 is a 125gn Nosler Ballistic Tip, 43gns AR2206H.
I thought that a light load might be more fun, (and less expensive) than using BT's all the time and for rabbits, foxes, goats and even small pigs these little projectiles could be just the thing.
I found some .308 86gn HP's made by "The Bullet Factory" http://people.aapt.net.au/~nelltash5/bullet%20factory%2002/index.htm and purchased 100 of them to see how they would go.
 
Here is a .257 85gn BT, the Bullet Factory .308 86gn HP, Rem .308 125gn SP, and .308 125gn BT.

 
And a loaded cartridge compared with a 125gn NBT.

 
Gitano used 4227 in his loads. I have AR2205, about the same but Paul suggested I start at 37gns. Just me being carefull but I decided to start at 36gns and work up in .5gns and shoot them at 50 metres.
 
The 36gn target:
 
The 36.5gn target:
 
The 37gn target:
 
I really want to do better than this if I can. The 4x scope cross hairs cover alot of the target at 50 metres so that doesn't help, neither does the 99's heavy trigger. My rifle has a history of vertical stringing, that I can live with.
 
I'm going to get another scope for the Savage and shoot the whole thing over again but this time with loads down to 34gns, just to see how it goes.
 
And on a final note, I was using Winchester brass for most of the loads. When I changed to Highland brass to shoot another 37gn group the rifle gave an almighty "BANG" and the projectile never hit the target. I struggled to open the action and when I finally did I saw that the primer had blown. Way too hot for Highland cases. Just shows that you can never be too carefull.
p.s. I was aiming at the lower target, the lighter projectile are hitting some 15cm higher than my standard 125gn load.

The only thing that would concern me is speed and a rather large bullet jump.....not a good combination for long barrel life. I don't mean to rain on your parade just a consideration. Regards, Rick.

Great minds must think alike.

I've been fooling with the Speer 130 HP in the 308 over a load of RL-10X.  According to QuickLoad I get 100% burn before the bullet leaves the muzzle and the muzzle pressure is significantly lower.  Hence less flash and blast. Even at high chamber pressure recoil is moderate and I'm happy with the velocity and accuracy.

Gotta get another box of these bullets and sort out a possible bedding issue with the rifle of interest to finish up on this load. And get Gitano some data out of this on stepped Mauser barrels.

A couple of thing to chew on is the "jump" to the lands and muzzle pressure.  With the short bearing lengths and a big jump there might be the chance for the bullet to engrave into the lands canted slightly and/or off center. Tighter tolerence on neck runout and seating the bullets out can help.  The other is a school of thought that says on choosing a powder for high velocity light bullets, that one that gives a lower pressure at the muzzle promotes accuracy over one that provides higher muzzle pressure, given that all other factors are the same.  The logic is lessening rotational acceleration on the bullet just before muzzle exit (where acceleration=0) and less chance of crown imperfection influence upon gas disturbance of the bullet just after it leaves the muzzle.

I don't have enough hard data to absolutely vindicate either of those two theories, but I am achieving better than expected accuracy from RL-10X.

Nels

What a very spiffy-looking bullet! Light-weight AND with a nice large meplat. Very interesting.
 
Honestly, the instance with the different brass is a bit "odd". Even a very much smaller case shouldn't cause a primer to blow. Sumpin' strange there. Any chance it (the rifle or the air or both) got "hot" over the course of your shooting?
 
Anyway, QuickLoad says that in a 24" barrel and seated to 1 caliber (.308") with a charge of 37 grains of AR2205, that bullet should be doing about 3300 f/s. Not too shabby. More significantly, the max estimated chamber pressure is only 48,000 PSI. This is your Model 99 Savage, right? QL says the max load of 2205 in a .308 Win is 38.3 grains, yielding a max pressure of 52,700 PSI. That might be a bit too much for an older Model 99, but I don't think it is for one built after WWII. (All of this is more reason to suspect that the Highland brass wasn't the cause of the blown primer.)
 
Anyway, I'd do exactly what you're planning - drop down to 34 and start up from there. There is one thing to note however. The 37-grain charge is only 84% of case capacity, and 34 grains 77%. (This of course with the .308" seating depth.) That's getting "down there" for what most consider a "good" (for accuracy) load density. Also, I'd watch that ambient temperature. If you're up around 37* C, that's "hot". That pushes the 37-grain pressure up over 50,000 PSI.
 
I also looked at the trajectory. This is a very interesting bullet!
 
Looking forward to more dead paper pictures.
 
Paul

Hmmm I don't know about the 86 grainers but the 130 HP's look good :grin:  I wonder about price and shipping to the UK. I might just have to drop them an e-mail and ask .

I am certainly 'on board' with everyone's comments about bullet 'jump'. That's why I made two versions of the 8x.376 Steyr - one for the long 220-grain bullets, and one for the short 125-grainers. Still haven't be able to 'wring' the short-throated version out yet. It also has a 26" bbl.
 
A warning is probably in order.
 
Seems that there is a growing appreciaion for the Speer .308 130-grain HP. I expect the better we like it and the more people that start using it, the higher the likelihood that Speer will quit making it. Better stock up now if you think you're gonna keep using it. No... I'm not joking.
 
Just two recent examples: As soon as I made the short-throated Steyr, Hornady quit making it's 125-grian bullets. As soon as BH finally got his .25-06 to shoot straight with 120-grain bullets, Speer announced it was discontinuing that specific bullet's production. There are numerous other examples.
 
I am beginning to BELIEVE that as soon as a bullet that heretofore was only appreciated by the few, fights its way from out of the "weeds" of reloading, the manufacturers - for reasons not known to us regular Joes - quit making them ASAP. I have been using Speer 115-grain HPs in my large-capacity 7mm cartridges for decades, and they are still in production, BUT... I BELIEVE that if I wasn't "the only one" doing it, Speer would announce it's 'obsolescence". In other words, if sales for the Speer 115-grain 7mm HP suddenly increased, it would be hastily removed from production.
 
Actually, I can speculate on a mechanism that most of us would find bazaar, frustrating and stupid.
 
Imagine you are a bullet manufacturer. Other than the "old" and "traditional" weghts and configurations, you don't know what is a going to sell, so you offer a variety of weights and types. Some of the "models" limp along for years, having sales that just barely justify keeping them on the market. All of a sudden, the sales of one of these bullets takes a jump. Instead of increasing production, they STOP production, creating a "want". THEN, they replace the original with some new-fangled "high tech", or "environmentally friendly" bullet that is supposedly "better", but more importantly, THEY CAN SELL FOR MORE PROFIT!
 
I really can't understand why "they" so consisitently take bullets with rising sales out of production. Of course when challenged, they deny that sales were "rising", just like they denied that there was a bullet "shortage" last year.
 
Paul
 
PS - Have you EVER heard of a round-nosed bullet going out of production? Have you seen the number of RN bullets offered in the most obscure calibers?

22hornet, et al,
 
Sierra still makes their 30 cal, 110gr, HP Varminter buddet!..The last time I used this particular was in the spring of 1961 at a prairie dog town east of Trinidad, CO. Issue 1903 Springfield, Weaver V8 scope .... made a shot of 419 'steps' on a pasture poodle!
 
Might give that little bullet with the BIG HP a try...
 
Ol' John...

I understand about the long jump to the lands and I have some room to seat them out a little further. I'll have to try this too but I don't want to change too many things at once when working out a load.

I wasn't aware of the possibility of canting the projectile by having a large jump either Nels. Its something I will have to take into consideration.

Paul, my rifle is a Savage 99, 21" barrel. I was shooting in A/C comfort at an indoor range so the temp wasn't a problem.
I am sure that the problem was with the brass. I use Highland brass in my .223 also and the loads that I previously used with Winchester brass are too hot in Highland brass. I even double checked the charge in the unfired cases when I got home just to make sure.

I wasn't even aware of the Sierra 110gn HP John, its just not too common over here. They probably don't sell too well so they don't bring them over. Plastic Tips are all the rage now when it comes to varmint projectiles.

Quote from: gitano;101937Some of the "models" limp along for years, having sales that just barely justify keeping them on the market. All of a sudden, the sales of one of these bullets takes a jump. Instead of increasing production, they STOP production, creating a "want". THEN, they replace the original with some new-fangled "high tech", or "environmentally friendly" bullet that is supposedly "better", but more importantly, THEY CAN SELL FOR MORE PROFIT!

But then thats not the same projectile either, is it?

I would have thought that its better to stick with what is working. Develop a reputation and build upon it.
If you keep changing things, I, as a comsumer will lose confidence in that product line. I'll be thinking, "Why are they changing again!? " and "What are they doing wrong?"
In fact take a look at Barnes projectiles. How many time have they changed their projectiles over the years?

I'm not against development of projectiles, thats a good thing, but to remove a perfectly good, proven product in the name of greed, well thats wrong.

One of the reasons that drew me to purchasing these projectiles from Jason is that they are being made by a "hobby enthusiast". Producing projectiles is not his full time job and its these guys that I like to support because they are more likely to produce the more obscure weights and calibres for the little guys.
I hope Jason does produce some 125-130gn 8mm projectiles for Kombi. I don't know of any 8mm projectiles under 150gns for sale in OZ right now. He will have the whole market.

"I was shooting in A/C comfort at an indoor range so the temp wasn't a problem.... I am sure that the problem was with the brass."
 
Wierd.
 
Since this is the .308 Win cartridge, and I have an elevated interest in that cartridge, would you do me a favor and measure the case capacities of a couple of the Highland cases? Please believe me when I say I am NOT looking for you to "prove" ANYTHING. I believe you that the cases are the issue. I just want to know what the quantitative difference between the Highland cases and other cases is. Sounds like it's got to be 10% or more. That'd be huge, AND DANGEROUS. Also plays havok with trying to work up a load, as you have already found out.

Sounds like it's "Highland brass or the highway" :D:D:D

' couldn't resist....

Paul

Quote from: gitano;101972Since this is the .308 Win cartridge, and I have an elevated interest in that cartridge, would you do me a favor and measure the case capacities of a couple of the Highland cases?

Sure, I'll weigh a some empty cases with no primer and then some cases with a fired primer will with water. I'll do both the Highland and Winchester.

You're a peach! :D
 
Paul

QuoteOne of the reasons that drew me to purchasing these projectiles from Jason is that they are being made by a "hobby enthusiast". Producing projectiles is not his full time job and its these guys that I like to support because they are more likely to produce the more obscure weights and calibres for the little guys.

Right on! AND, REAL market pressures instead of the fantasy ones dreamed up by Harvard School of Business graduates, will drive the production.[/SIZE]

QuoteI hope Jason does produce some 125-130gn 8mm projectiles for Kombi. I don't know of any 8mm projectiles under 150gns for sale in OZ right now. He will have the whole market.

Again, right on! I like to see that market get 'smokin' ' and show the numbskulls at Hornady that decided to drop the 125 from their line that they were dead wrong.
 
Paul[/SIZE]

I weighed 5 Winchester .308 cases with fired CCI benchrest primers still in the cases.

165.9gns
163.0gns
164.5gns
164.6gns
165.2gns

Next I weighed 5 Highland cases with fired CCI benchrest primers still in the cases.

175.9gns
175.1gns
176.9gns
175.5gns
176.2gns

I'm having trouble filling the cases with water, I don't have anything that fills the cases without getting air bubbles and the results are very erratic. I'm still working on it......

About 10 grains different out of 170 is about 6% - in weight.
 
Don't worry yourself about it too much, but I use a plastic pipette or an eye-dropper. Used-to-be, eye-droppers came in every kind of 'medicine' you could imagine. I haven't seen one in decades.
 
Paul