Just got this yesterday. I saw it on Auction Arms, http://www.auctionarms.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=8930649.0 and found out it was being sold by a business in Anchorage called Wild West Guns. When I went in to Los Anchorage to pick up the Quigley, I stopped by WWG and 'put my hands on' this piece. As you can see from the pictures, it's not exactly "field ready". However, it spoke to me. It has all the "things" I like. It's:
1) Made by Franz Sodia - an oustanding, and world-renowned Austrian gunmaker,:bowdown: particularly well-known for "combination guns",
 
2) A SxS Cape gun:D :D :D
 
3) A 16 Gauge shotgun barrel:2thumbsup:
 
4) A 9.3x72R rifle barrel (8x57 would havbe been better, but the 9.3x72R is still "nice")
 
5) A Back action I LOVE those,
6) Has External hammers that "click" into place smartly,
 
7) Locks up tight - both breech and watertable
 
8) Has "doll's head" breech lockup system.
 
I got it for $487, about 20% ($2500) of what a Franz Sodia Cape Gun in "NRA Good" condition would cost. I didn't 'sneak' it away though. There were 30-some-odd bids for it. I'm probably the only bidder that actually put his hands on it before bidding. In fact, I probably wouldn't have paid more than $350 if I hadn't seen it first-hand.
 
Clearly I have "some work to do". Nonetheless, I am tickled pink. I may send it off to Doug Turnbull http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/ and see what his estimate is for returning it to as good as, or better than, new would be. Most likely he'll want more than I'm interested in paying, but the Turnbull shop does extraordinary work. A piece like this would be quite an heirloom if restored to glory.
 
Now I gotta go find some 9x72R brass.
 
Paul

Neat gun, and funny that it turns up just when you have gotten good and serious (and equiped) to make your own.  Have fun with it

Paul that 's a nice piece.....keep us posted.. Ron

Thanks Ron.
 

QuoteHave fun with it

Thanks, Glenn. I hope to.
 

Quotefunny that it turns up just when you have gotten good and serious (and equiped) to make your own

Waaalllll... While the one I am making will certainly 'scratch an itch', it won't hold a candle to one made from scratch by a real gun-maker.
 
I'm looking at sources for back actions for muzzleloading SxSs so I can make SxS rifles, Cape Guns, and shotguns, but I haven't yet figured out how to make/acquire the back action breechloading actions.
 
Folks often think - I certainly did - that fabricating a firearm from scratch, maybe especially muzzle loaders, is "inexpensive". Au contare, mon ami.
 
Back-action locks at Track of the Wolf http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(kztgkx55tnhx13ftw3ocz43z))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=147&styleId=856&partNum=LOCK-LR-700 are $84 each - $168.
 
Double breeches http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(kztgkx55tnhx13ftw3ocz43z))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=20&SUBID=134&STYLEID=486&PARTNUM=PLUG-FD-18-7 are $70 - we're now up to $238.
 
The triggers http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(kztgkx55tnhx13ftw3ocz43z))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=14&SUBID=156&STYLEID=969&PARTNUM=TR-LR-DBL are $60 - $298 total so far.
 
The barrels, http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(kztgkx55tnhx13ftw3ocz43z))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=142&styleId=492&partNum=COLE-FOWL46-16 depending on whether it is a SxS shotgun, SxS rifle, or "Cape Gun", are generally $200-ish - bringing the total to $498.
 
A plain, straight-grained, full-length maple stock that I carve myself could be as little as $30 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(kztgkx55tnhx13ftw3ocz43z))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=154&styleID=663. Total now $528 and I haven't got any of the "small pieces" yet. Probably at least another $100 in sights, thimbles, buttplates, forend caps, etc., and before I even start work on this self-assembled KIT, I've got pert-near $650 (before shipping) in 'parts'. (Notice how the Franz Sodia Cape Gun is looking like a better deal?)
 
It is a goal of mine to fabricate at least one SxS muzzleloader. But I'd really like to find a way to get/make a breech-loading double barrel action - preferably a back action type. You may recall that I purchased an old (1850s) Husqvarna SxS 16 gauge back-action breechloader herewhileback. I had full intentions of converting it to a double rifle or Cape Gun. However, when I got it in my hands, I simply fell in love with it. It is the most "beautiful" to hold firearm I own or that I have ever held. I'd buy a dozen more of them if I could, and I'd never dream of "coverting" them. They are simply a joy to hold. MAN! they used to know how to make firearms!
 
Anyway, I'm looking forward to making this Cape Gun a working firearm. Maybe restoring it to former glory, and possibly even better than original. As Ol' John says, "In the end, it usually just comes down to money."
 
Thanks for the encouragement.
 
Paul

I picked the piece up yesterday, and since I had actually had it in my hands before, there were no surprises. I'm almost certain I am going to send it to Turnbull for an estimate of what he would charge to "restore" it.
 
There was one wrinkle when I went in to pay for it though. The piece is clearly pre-1899, making it an "antique" as far as BATFE is concerned, and therefore DOES NOT require ANY BATFE paperwork to be filled out. Nonetheless, Wild West Guns insisted that I fill out the BATFE form 4473. Now the BATFE knows where to find me, that's not the point. The POINT IS: It should be illegal for a non-government entity to FORCE - by virtue of threatening to withhold a sale - a citizen to fillout inappropriate GOVERNMENT paperwork. ESPECIALLY paperwork that permits the government to illegally track the activities of a private citizen. As a matter of fact, it is possible, that if the government used information contained in this 4473 to effect a search of my premises, all of the "evidence" they would subsequently sieze would be dis-allowed in court, as "fruit of the poison tree".
 
Of course I acquiesced, or I wouldn't have been able to complete the purchase. But you can bet I'm not happy about it.
 
It's a nice piece, but it needs considerable work. The best news is that both of the bores are excellent. I slugged the rifle bore, and got the following numbers:
 
Bore = 0.3560" to 0.3570"
Groove = 0.362" t0 0.3625"
 
Which may mean that I will HAVE to shoot one of the following: 1) cast bullets, 2) home-made jacketed bullets, or 3) "squoze" 9.3mm (.0.366") bullets.
 
I haven't cast the chamber yet, but I did measure the distance to the lands at 3.0". Since the 9.3x74R case won't fit past about 2/3rds of the way into the chamber, I think the guess by WWGs that it is a 9.3x72R is correct. I found some 9.3x72R brass at Buffalo Arms for $1.50 each. If, after I cast the chamber, the conclusion remains that the chambering is for the 9.3x72R, I'll order 20 or so rounds. Reloading dies are another matter. I've attached a picture of the 9.3x72R from QuickLoad. Kind of a 'pencil'.
 
I removed the locks, and was a bit disappointed to see the amount of rust on the main springs. By the same token, I have to admit that it was an utter joy to see the delicate and skillful workmanship of the locks. When I look at today's arms, the level of workmanship displayed encourages me to thoughts of; "Shoot... I can do that." When I look at the workings of one of these 19th century firearms, I am completely humbled.
 
Paul

Paul, that was a fine gun at one point in it's life. It can be restored by yourself with time. It's an intresting project but not for an older person with other things to do. It's an undertaking to be savored and not done by someone in a hurry. It deserves better. .........The chambering is a bummer but all is not lost. cases can be turned on a lathe. It wouldn't take a lot to make forty cases from half inch brass rod on an engine lathe. There are no other cases that I know of that can be converted.     ..............Paul H

Nice looking gun indeed. it is funny how some people can see a beat up, worn out gun, and others see what it can still be! I have really gained an interest in these older guns! God Bless.

Quoteit is funny how some people can see a beat up, worn out gun, and others see what it can still be!

I'm not sure my wife agrees David, but I sure do. :D
 
 
I agree with everything you said, Paul.
 
I've considered turning some cases, and I'm considering making some from brass tubing and .30-30 heads. Donnelly says silver solder will hold up to 40K PSI. All of the loads I have considered so far are at least 10% below 25k PSI. QuickLoad says the 9.3x72R's max chamber pressure is 29,000 PSI.
 
I've got a bit of a bad taste in my mouth with respect to cast bullets. None of mine have worked worth a hoot in anything but the Collath drilling, (.45-70:no:, 50 Alaskan:no:, 8x57:no:, 7.62x54R:no:, 6.5x557:no:, 7.5x55 Swiss:no:, 10.75mm/.424:yes:). Extremely bad leading and mediocre accuracy in everything but the Collath. I suppose I could 'squint my eyes' and make the assumption that lead will work well in the Cape Gun because it is also Austrian manufacture of the same era as the Collath. However, I wouldn't believe it if I said it.
 
That means I'm prolly gonna hafta make bullets for it. Like the cases, I don't mind. I have designed a 200-grain bullet that should have a BC between .325 and .350. 200 grains is about the "best" weight for this case in terms of delivered energy per pound of pressure generated per grain of powder used. If that turned out to "work" in real life like it does on paper, it would make the Sodia a good moose gun out to 200 yds.
 
~1.5" high at 100,
~5" low at 200,
~1425 ft-lbs at 200,
~22.5k PSI max chamber pressure,
~2250 f/s MV, and
~1800 f/s impact velocity.
 
What I'm thinking at the moment is getting a die per my design specs (1.0" long, tangent ogive of 5 calibers, and flat base), that would take one of Hawk's soft, pure copper- jacketed/pure lead-cored, 200-grainers in .366" and 'squeez' it down to .3625". I could of course run the .366" bullets through the .3625"-grooved barrel of the Sodia, but that would render QuickLoad useless for figuring chamber pressures for loads.
 
In the alternative, I could get a swaging die for pure lead of the same design for about $120. Or... I could fabricate/turn 0.3625" jackets from existing brass cases, and swage in cores like I have done for the Alaskan.
 
This isn't a firearm I'm going to be putting several hundred rounds per year through. Making cases and bullets for an old piece like this isn't a "negative" to me.
 
Paul

Great pick up Paul, that is a gun that I would like to hear talk. I wonder what the previous owners used it on and how much value they placed on it.
 
Restoration could cost big $$$ depending on what path you go down but just to get it to shoot will be cheaper and then it is a work in progress.
 
As to brass, do Bertrams make suitable brass for the 9.3x72R?

QuoteRestoration could cost big $$$ depending on what path you go down

I think that is correct.
 

Quotedo Bertrams make suitable brass for the 9.3x72R?

I'm not sure, but it's difficult to find Bertrams brass for less than $2 each over here. Especially anything 'esoteric'. Also, there are at least two "9.3x72Rs". One a ".360" and one called the "Sauer". Mine is definitely not the Sauer, but the Sauer version is the more modern one, and I expect it to be the case most commonly sold. None of the folks selling brass name it either ".360" or "Sauer" nor do they show a picture of the case they call the "9.3x72R". I'm going to have to get the dimensions from a chamber cast and talk to somebody on the phone.
 
I'm going to send this off to Turnbull this coming week. I expect his estimate to represent the "top end", but I'm pretty sure his quality represents the top end too. His estimates/evaluations are free if you don't count shipping. To be honest, I would expect his estimate to be in the $2,000 to $3000 range. The only dilemma I think I'll have is if his estimate is near $1000, (which I would seriously consider), but then says it'll take him 18 months to get to it, (which is what I hear). That would really have me 'conflicted'.
 

QuoteGreat pick up

Thanks,
 
Paul

Well, among other things,  I got the chamber cast. It's the cartridge in the picture above - the 9.3x72R (.360). The dimensions of the chamber are below, with the cartridge dimensions from QuickLoad to the right.
 
 
........................................ Chamber ...........................Cartridge
Rim Diameter . . . . . . . . . . . 0.493" ...............................0.486"
Head Diameter  . . . . . . . . . . 0.430" ................................0.430"
Diameter @ 1.969"............... 0.390" ............................... 0.387"
Diameter @ 2.835" (72mm)... 0.390" ...............................0.387"
 
A very loooooonnnnngggg cartridge for being so small in diameter. It looks strange, at least to me. I'll call Buffalo Arms tomorrow and see if what they are selling are cases for this cartridge, or for the Sauer.
 
Paul

I would restore it and 18 months isn't that bad for Guild work. Regards, Rick.

Paul had the same happen to me over a colt model lighting pistol.......i declined as a matter of princeable.........i know how ya fell.........i realy wanted that colt..........maybe it has something to do with liabelty.......of the age? of the rifle, and using it.......... Ron

I called Turnbull's shop on Monday to discuss the matter with them before I sent the piece for appraisal. It was a good thing.
 
First, let me state up front that they were very courteous and helpful, and it was a pleasure speaking with them. But... they're not particularly interested in this project. There are two major points.
 
First, they are clearly focused on restoring old Winchester lever guns, and old Parker and Fox side-by-sides. They've got all the business they want with those firearms, and aren't particularly interested in projects outside those boundaries.
 
Second, they consider the missing forearm metal to be "a big deal". This concern was expressed by another restorer I spoke with.
 
Turnbull recommended highly a couple of fellows in Oregon for the "wood work", stating that they would do at least as good a job as Turnbull's could, and probably be "more competitive" on price.
 
"Turnbull" (actually someone in his shop), agreed to do the case coloring if I sent the metal to "him". When I asked about the turnaround time for the case coloring, I got the following response: "If it is ready for coloring, meaning disassembled and polished, the turnaround time would be 2 to 3 months. If it needs disassembly and polishing when we get it, turnaround time would be between 6 and 12 months." I'll be sending it disassembled and polished. :)
 
I called the fellow in Oregon - Buehler is his name. He expressed the same concern about the forearm as Turnbull did. Missing metal is a big deal to these guys. When we got down to 'brass tacks', he gave me the following 'estimate': Make a new buttstock - at least $4000, maybe $5000. Make just the metal for the forearm, about $1000. We agreed that "it" wasn't "worth it".
 
So... I don't think I'll try any more members of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, and therefore it is unlikely that I will find someone that can do the work with the quaity I expect within the cost I am willing to pay, except...
 
Me.
 
Looks like I'm on my own here. That's OK. I thought that might end up being the case. As I said above, I'm fairly confident that I can make the buttstock as good as anyone (checkering not included). In my discusson with Buehler, he explained that the cost of the forearm metal was all in the fact that it had to be made "by hand" for the particular arm. I understand. It's all about hand-made metalwork labor. :D It wasn't difficult, it was just time-consuming. Hah! I can do that!
 
So... as I said, looks like I am on my own, and I'm OK with that. There are only two "issues" that are going to be challenges. First, the mortises for the locks. The mortise itself isn't the issue, it's getting the curve to the wrist correct WITH the mortise position. Second, as I mentioned, there is some rust on the lock works. I have disassembled them and they are soaking. I have polished the rust off of almost all of the pieces of one lock. However, the sears of the triggers have rust on them, and I am having a devil-of-a-time getting the trigger guard off so I can access the triggers inside to clean them up. There simply isn't a gunsmith that I know of in Alaska that I trust to work on a firearm like this without buggering up the engraved screw heads.
 
The lock mortises are a "real" issue; access to the triggers is not a "big" deal. I just have to 'find' a solution.
 
I'll post some pictures of the "parts" later. The pictures will make clearer much of what I said above.
 
Paul

Paul, iffin I was in your shoes I would do the whole thing myself. You can do it too. Just take your time and fit everything together as you go. Making the fore end iron could be difficult without a pattern. I would just make it so it looks right to me. Fitting the wood to it isn't a big deal then. Fitting any back lock can be a pain but still doable with with patience. Be sure to invest in Exacto knives because they will save you much grief. Good luck pal .......Paul H