Nyati Out... Schuler In

Started by Jay Edward (deceased), April 13, 2008, 01:42:30 PM

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Jay Edward (deceased)

Alright... since the Nyati is too much rifle/cartridge... enter the Schuler.  Now can we shoot that consarned Cape Buffalo?

Jay Edward (deceased)

Here is some data (more is forthcoming).

Jay Edward (deceased)

This is supposed to be the English equivalent.

Jay Edward (deceased)

The .500 Jeffery and the .505 Gibbs: Nitro-Express Power in the Mauser 98

  Terry Wieland's, On Ammo

  The nitro express cartridges are, by definition, rimmed and intended for either single-shot or double rifles, and all were introduced between 1898 and approximately 1907. But there is a small sub-class of big cartridges that came along two or three years later, intended for use in the then-new Mauser magazine rifle.

  The larger ones (.400 and up) were intended to duplicate the ballistic performance of their rimmed NE counterparts.

  The most famous is the .505 Gibbs, which has a unique distinction: In his great short story, The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber, Ernest Hemingway gave one to the white hunter, Robert Wilson, who used it to devastating effect on a lion and several Cape buffalo. Wilson describes the "short, ugly" rifle as "this ****ed cannon," and Hemingway adds the slight ballistic gaffe that it had "a muzzle velocity of two tons." But you get the picture: The .505 Gibbs was the graceless but efficient tool of the professional.

  Partly due to Hemingway's influence, the .505 Gibbs became familiar to Americans where other big British cartridges did not. Abercrombie & Fitch, when it was New York's pre-eminent sporting goods store, occasionally had a .505 in stock, and Hemingway even fired one in their downstairs shooting range before he left for his first safari. It is the only big English magazine cartridge covered in Phil Sharpe's 1938 handloading tome, and it is described everywhere with breathless awe and veiled references to broken collar bones.

  In fact, in a rifle of decent weight, the .505 Gibbs is not that bad to shoot. Its original 525-grain bullet more or less duplicated the ballistic performance of a .500 Nitro Express, and the recoil is massive but not vicious. Late in his life, Frederick Courteney Selous took to hunting with a Gibbs Farquharson single-shot chambered for the .505 because he was reportedly tired of being kicked to death by the behemoth blackpowder rifles of the day. Everything is relative.

  The .505 was introduced by George Gibbs of Bristol in 1911, and for the record, the proper name (as shown on original ammunition boxes) is .505 Magnum. Gibbs was a noted riflemaker who pioneered Metford rifled barrels and made excellent target rifles. His .505 employs a case that is wider and longer than the .416 Rigby, and employs a true .505" bullet (as opposed to the .500 NE .510"). It is 3.85 inches long, loaded.

  Even so, it is not the most powerful cartridge of its class. That honour belongs to the .500 Jeffery, an obscure and rare creation whose date and place of birth, as well as its creator, are all lost to history. We do know it is the same cartridge as the 12.5x70mm Schuler, a German cartridge that arrived around 1920. Who was the originator, and who the copier – Schuler or Jeffery? We don't know.

  The Jeffery uses a .510" bullet in a case that is smaller in every way than the Gibbs, but sports a higher muzzle velocity (and much higher breech pressures, needless to say). John Taylor speaks very highly of the .500 Jeffery, having used one belonging to a close friend. For many years, obtaining brass for either the Gibbs or the Jeffery cartridge was extremely difficult, and that was a further limiting factor.

  Today, brass and ammunition are available from a number of sources and both cartridges are enjoying a renaissance of sorts as American hunters embrace cartridges that would down a charging dinosaur, never mind anything they might actually hunt.

  For all their notoriety, however, neither the .505 Gibbs nor the .500 Jeffery can really be considered a roaring success like the .375 H&H or the .416 Rigby. Original rifles in either calibre are rare because the vast majority of professionals preferred a double for serious situations with dangerous game, and anyone who could not afford a double probably could not afford a magazine rifle from Gibbs or Jeffery either.

  Still, with today's bullets and powders, they are both great cartridges for either elephant or Cape buffalo.

  Manufacturer Bullet Weight Muzzle Velocity Muzzle Energy

  .500 Jeffery

  Westley Richards 535 2400 feet per second 6800 foot/pounds

  Kynoch (Kynamco) 535 2400 fps 6800 ft.lbs.

  * * *
  .505 Gibbs

  Westley Richards 525 2310 fps 6260 ft.lbs.

  Kynoch (Kynamco) 525 2300 fps 6180 ft.lbs.

  A-Square 525 2300 fps 6166 ft.lbs.


  Westley Richards ammunition is loaded with Woodleigh bullets, and velocity is measured from a 24-inch barrel in .500 Jeffery, and a 26-inch barrel in .505 Gibbs.


  Modern Kynoch ammunition is loaded with both Woodleigh solids and Weldcore soft points. Velocity is measured from a 28" barrel.


  A-Square ammunition is loaded with Dead Tough and Lion Load softpoints and Monolithic solids. Velocity is measured from a 24-inch barrel.

  The 500 Jeffery is misnamed as it was designed in Germany under the name "500 Schuler". Hostilities between England and Germany during the first world war resulted in British firms calling the cartridge the 500 Jeffery instead, although the two cartridges are one and the same. The European designation for the cartridge is 12.7 x 70 mm.

  The 500 Jeffery is an excellent big bore stopping rifle pushing up to a 600 grain bullet at 2400 feet per second with proper reloads. Original ballistic were a 535 grain bullet at 2400 feet per second. Lengthwise penetration on buffalo using a 500 Jeffery is reported by Jaco Marais of South Africa. Similar performance can be obtained from the 505 Gibbs and 500 A-Square.

  The 500 Jeffery has a cartridge overall length of 3.45" which permits it to be built on smaller actions such as standard Mauser 98. Before the reader becomes enthusiastic about rebarreling a surplus model 98 Mauser to 500 Jeffery, there are some difficult problems to consider. First, the 500 Jeffery has a rebated rim, which can lead to feeding problems if the rifle is not properly assembled. A few master rifle makers can get a 500 Jeffery to reliably feed from a staggered magazine. Others will prefer to use a single stack Schuler style magazine for its reliability. The original Schuler rifles used a single stack magazine. Another feeding trick is to use a U-shaped follower rather than a standard L-shaped follower in order for the cartridge to ride as high as possible to avoid the bolt overriding it and closing on an empty chamber. Second, the 500 Jeffery is a fat little cartridge that will require construction of a new magazine box and extensive work to the rails and ramp of the rifle. When these issues are considered, the 500 A-Square on a CZ550 action begins to look like a much more attractive option for the budget-minded.

klallen

#4
We have a PH over on another site I participate who guides African hunts. I believe his stopper is the .458 Lott and he sounds quite pleased with it. Regarding the .585 cartridges like the Nyati and Tyrannosaur, I guess if stopping / client protection is the concern and not hunting, I be shouldering the largest caliber cartridge I could accurately muster. If that were either .585, then that's what I'd be carrying. If I were hunting a cape buffalo, the .416 RemMag would be what I'd choose for myself. Loads of power and something I know I can shoot accurately. And the .505 Gibbs, I must admit, I have on several occasions looked into one of the CZ550 Safari Grade rifles. Zero practical use at this point other then to simply toy with the round and would love the opportunity. Just haven't mustered the $3K pricetag yet. klallen

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: klallen;77388And the .505 Gibbs, I must admit, I have on several occasions looked into one of the CZ550 Safari Grade rifles.  Zero practical use at this point other then to simply toy with the round and would love the opportunity.  Just haven't mustered the $3K price tag yet.  klallen


Along this line I would like to point out just one of many makers of heavy game rifles.  This image and another I shall put up is displayed by RB Woods' site.

Note the design of the scopes on these rifles.  This is my favorite design and I would love to have a barrel full of the old Leupold 3X scopes for my use.  I would immediately divest myself of scopes I have which have a 'bell' on both ends.

Jay Edward (deceased)

Due to size limitations for posting this image completes the site images.

Here is the other half of the picture.

Brithunter

Hi All,

    Ahhh just read a report on a 505 Gibbs rifle by Heym, some wildlife programme maker brought it as Bear protection, Polar Bear that is! normal production model only costs about $12,000US and Norma makes 505 Gibbs ammo again. I did get to fire a Custom Belgian 505 rifle a few years back and was not impressed as that was about the same price yet had several operating issues :frown  Ahhh Dumoulin was the name of the rifle.

  Pecar, Zeiss, Swaroski all make straight tube scopes for these applications of course they are all expensive but hey if you can afford the rifle and the safari I suppose $1500-2000US for a scope is nothing :greentongue: .

  Me I always fancied a 404 Jeffries and very nearly had one :Banghead:  should have put a depsoit on it which is how I ended up with my P-H 1100M in 458.
Go Get them Floyd!

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: Brithunter;77445Me I always fancied a 404 Jeffries and very nearly had one   should have put a depsoit on it which is how I ended up with my P-H 1100M in 458.

I know what you mean BH.  I was offered a 600 Nitro double and was too short sighted to take out a loan.  Ah well.

Here is a link for those of you who might enjoy big bore rifles:


http://www.accuratereloading.com/index.html

The Photo Gallery is interesting.

Brithunter

Hi Jay,

    I was looking over a nice Sako 416 Rem the other Sunday at the range, the owners son has it and was testing some new bullets. I will try to remember to get a coule of photos of it as it's a handsome rifle and quite pleasant to shoot.
Go Get them Floyd!

404 jeffery

jay thanks for the photo's , looking at them you can see thats rifles that means bussiness, and you get all drooly and stary-eyed , i just love big bores. as for brit pitty you could not get the 404 jeffery a great cal.

Jay Edward (deceased)

You're welcome 404.  You know, I still have my .416 chambering reamer and I've thought  (off and on) about putting together another large game rifle.

My big bore inclinations over the last number of years have run to .40s, .45s and .50s in blackpowder cartridge rifles as well as even larger bores in M/Ls.  Maybe I should put together just one more for my sons.

I'll have to think on it.

404 jeffery

jay dont sit and ponder too long, its always nice to do something nice and you know it wll be appreciated, by the way is that rigby or remington?? either way still a nice cal.

Jay Edward (deceased)

Rigby reamer 404.  I reckon I'll have to dig up a '17 action for the project.

404 jeffery

well jay get up off your rocking chair on the porch and, no on second thoughts thats the right place to be, staring into the distance and let your thoughts wander to the african bush hearing the lion calling his mates at sunset to get ready for the nights hunt, you staring into the fire contemplating tommorows hunt, sipping on a nice red wine arguing with your companions over whitch cal is the best knowing there will never be concensus because in our hearts we all say i still think mine is best, just to start all over the next evening, have great day.

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