This is one I can't answer so far.
 
Why does accuracy fall off so quickly with range with a .22lr?
 
I have a gun that will shoot less than 1/2" groups at 50yds, but struggles to make 2.5" groups at 100yds - with all other things as equal as possible - using wind flags - parallax adjusted - ammo not going transonic - tried multiple ammo types. The dispersion is more vertical than horizontal on these 100yd groups.
 
It seems like all .22LRs are like this from what I've found.
 
Anybody got a .22LR that shoots less than or around an inch at 100yds or an explaination?

Only my thoughts here, but when the bullet falls from supersonic to sub-sonic, it probably causes some problems with bullet flight.  The distance where that would likely happen would approximately match the point where your accuracy is falling off.
 
Try using sub-sonic ammo and see if it helps.  Don't know if it will, but it might be worth a shot.
 
I get the same thing from my .22 mag at right around 100-120 yards with the ammo I'm using.  Accuracy suddenly goes bad beyond that distance.
 
Daryl

I have noticed the same thing happening with my .22.
 
But heres something else. If I use H.V. ammo and subsonic ammo and get the same size groups at 50 metres, using the same ammo at 100 metres the subsonic ammo groups much tighter than the H.V. stuff.
 
I have been told by benchrest experts at the range that the H.V. .22 ammo goes through a period of instability when it drops from supersonic to subsonic speeds.
 
At what range does H.V. .22 ammo fall to subsonic speeds? Maybe this has something to do with it?

Hi There,

    I am sorry to tell you this .................................... but you need a better .22 rimfire rifle. Simple as that. Small bore shooting is conducted at 100 yards and the X ring is 1" Dia and in serious competions the winner is normally a perfect score and decided by the number of X rings scored. then of course you the shooter needs lots of practice as shooting rimfire is more "technical" than shooting centerfire for fun or practice. Due to the slower velocity I think you will find follow through is more important a bit like shooting muzzle loaders.

Standard velocity and target ammunition probably perform better at 100 yards than either High Velocity, Hyper Velocity or Sub sonic ammunition. However i did try some of the new Velocitors from CCI in the 100 M tunnel range through a couple of my rifles, Brno Model 2 and BSA Super Sport Five, and they grouped just over 1". With a good shooter behind the butt, one used to target aperture sights, my BSA 12/15 Martini still holds groups of around the 1" mark at 100 with target ammunition. Sadly with me behnd the butt the groups are a little larger .

Oh both the Brno and BSA are bolt actions made in the 1960's. The Model 2 was made in 1965 and has an almost target grade trigger on it, the BSA was made about the same time and has a two stage adjustable trigger and a heavy barrel. In fact they made a single shot version for target shooting called the "Century".

 Now to out your 1/2" groups into perpestive, the 25 yard small bore card for out NSRA competions has 10 targets on the card. One shot is fired at each target and the bull is only very slightly larger than the bullet diameter. Unless you can get at least 8 out of 10 bulls your not doing very well in this and possibles are the norm. Hmm well I got that wrong  just goes to show memory is not always correct!

  Just got one of the targets out and the 10 ring is 1/2" diameter with a  0.050" dot in the centre and in the big serious matches the ones who knock out thses centre dots are the ones who will win. This is shot prone with a sling using aperture sights. As you may guess it's been some time, several years in fact since I shot these targets :frown .

I think the key here is the statement:

QuoteThe dispersion is more vertical than horizontal on these 100yd groups.

This is a function of variations in muzzle velocity. While transcending the sound barrier is theoretical (can't be observed) cause for poor precision, vertical stringing is an almost certain sign of highly variable muzzle velocities. This is consistent with acceptable to good groups at 50 yds, where the variation in muzzle velocity hasn't been large enough to measure at that point. However, when the range extends, variations in MV are exacerbated by the effect of the relatively low BC of the .22 RF bullet.
 
Keeping the bullets supersonic (generally speaking, greater than 1050 f/s) over your 100 yd course will probably help some. BUT... selecting ammo that has the most consistent MV will substantially reduce the vertical dispersion at longer ranges.
 
Paul

Quote from: gitano;76891I think the key here is the statement:
 
 
This is a function of variations in muzzle velocity. While transcending the sound barrier is theoretical (can't be observed) cause for poor precision, vertical stringing is an almost certain sign of highly variable muzzle velocities. This is consistent with acceptable to good groups at 50 yds, where the variation in muzzle velocity hasn't been large enough to measure at that point. However, when the range extends, variations in MV are exacerbated by the effect of the relatively low BC of the .22 RF bullet.
 
Keeping the bullets supersonic (generally speaking, greater than 1050 f/s) over your 100 yd course will probably help some. BUT... selecting ammo that has the most consistent MV will substantially reduce the vertical dispersion at longer ranges.
 
Paul

That's the direction I'm heading. The chronograph is getting brought out to play.
 
Rifle is a Savage Anschutz model 64 shooting one of the kinds of ammo it shoots best: Remington Subsonic HP. It likes CCI standard velocity, green tag, and anything with Lapua, RWS, or Eley stamped on it, but the plain old subsonics (from which I take my screen name) shoot within 1/16" of the stuff that cost 2 to 3x as much in this rifle at 25yds - so I use them for most practice. I have a hard time holding groups within 1/16" - although on a really good day (for me and the wind) I can shoot through the same hole with the Lapua Midas from the bench at 25yds.
 
FWIW, all brands mentioned have the same strange vertical dispersion. The barrel on this booger is 26" long - which makes it sound like an air rifle - but may have something to do with my vertical dispersion at 100yds.

Quoteall brands mentioned have the same strange vertical dispersion.

That would suggest to me that the problem might not be variable MV. It would seem unlikely that they all have the same level of MV variability, but it could be the case. Still, at 100 yds, any variation in MV within any manufacturer would lead to vertical strings at some distance. It is likely that they all do indeed have very similar BCs.
 
Once you have MV data from each manufacturer and type,  the statistical probability of a particular vertical dispersion can be calculated. If the calculated dispersion is similar to the observed, then MV variance will account for the lion's share of the observed vertical dispersion.
 
I look forward to seeing the MV data.
 
Paul

Hi All,
 
       

QuoteRifle is a Savage Anschutz model 64

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    Well an Aunshutz 64 certainly should be capable of superb accuracy even at 100 yards as that's what they were designed and built for and is certainly of high quality. Notice the lack of Savage reference as let's face although they put their name on it they had nowt to do with making the rifle and most likely only imported it. Now the model 64 was available is several configurations including a lightweight and junior. Years ago I brought a very well used ex-club gun that was the light weight model, it didn't have the aperture sights so I fitted a scope.

   Now if the muzzle velocity is not causing it it sounds liek you might need to concentrate more on the follow through of the shot.

Well, I spent a few hours at the range yesterday with the chronograph and th 'Shutz.
 
My technique was to set up on bags, set up wind flags, set up the chrono, and try a bunch of stuff. The rifle was still dirty from the last shoot, because I only want to change 1 variable at a time and this rifle has shown to actually shoot better a little dirty for whatever reason (oh, and I'm lazy....)
 
Last time out, I shot 2 groups under .5" @ 50yds with Rem SS. One group that I kept measures .380"
 
During this 100yd testing, I did not stop to clean the rifle or make any conscious effort to let it cool once I started shooting. I did occassionally feel the truck axle, er, barrel and it was NEVER warm to the touch.
 
I tried to shoot only when the wind flags were down, but due to limited time and lack of attention to the flags, some shots did get out there during light winds.
 
So here we go.
 
Started with the Rem SS that it likes pretty well. These are the chrono numbers in order fired:
 
908.2
1022
1001
1018
1005
1007
1021
1000
1029
1006
 
That first one landed 5" lower than POA. I double checked the scope turret to make sure I had it dialed 8 MOA up. Then looked at the chrono. Shot number 2 landed about .2" left and high of POA. The group these made was 2.28", not counting the 5" low first shot. If you discount 1 other low flyer that was 1" down from POA, the group would have been a nice symetrical cluster measuring 1.29" I can deal with that slow first round and an occasional flyer for $22 a brick at Rural King.
 
I had a bunch of other ammo around from previous tests, so I tried some CCI Green Tag. This stuff never impressed me, and didn't impress this time either.
 
1054
972
1057
1057
1062
1057
1029
1043
1072
1051
 
This made a symetrical group of about 2.67" including that 2nd one that was about 1/2" lower than the next lowest shot from that group.
 
I had most of a box of 50 of something with "E" on the head of it that I got from the bargin bin for $0.50. The lid was missing, but it was greased up real good, smells funny when you shoot it, and seems to shoot worth $0.50. I'm guessing it's Eley standard velocity, but it could be something else similar. I only shot 5 of these because after I started shooting it, I thought "What difference does it make if it all goes through the same hole? I don't know what it is to buy more anyway!"
 
1028
1055
1061
1041
1073
 
It made a group of 2.49" that was spread mostly vertical, about 1.5" wide.
 
Next up was Eley Tenex.
 
1052
1053
1054
1070
1058
1074
1079
 
Group measured 1.66" - yep 7 shots. Mostly spread vertically, less than an inch wide.
 
We had a cease fire to change targets and I ended up inadvertantly letting the barrel cool while I talked to some guys checking zeros on a rack of varmint rifles. They were heading to Wyoming to hunt prarie dogs.
 
Then I fired the last 3 of that batch of 10 somewhat quickly during absolutely no wind. They strung vertically 2.38", but were less than 1/4" spread horizontally. Hmm.
 
1100
1060
1059
 
The first shot was the high one, about 1.5" higher than the other two, which were about 5/8" apart.
 
Now onto the filet mignon. I broke out 10 of the last 15 of my Lapua Midas L that I've been saving for a special occasion (@ $12 a box 6 years ago, they had better be good!)
 
1054
1068
1068
1070
1058
 
These made a cluster 1.38", spread mostly horizontally. Just over an inch tall.
 
Next up was some Eley Match EPS. Don't ask me what EPS means.
 
1036
1077
1061
1066
1061
 
Seemed to be decent stuff. The box said $7.99 from about 6 years ago and it grouped into 2.12" for 5 shots.
 
Now for some interesting stuff that this rifle always liked. Lapua Subsonic HP. Used to come in a nice pink box with a silhouette of a suppressed rifle on it. They have subsequently changed that to a much more PC package. This stuff smells sweet when you shoot it and has a lot of sheep tallow (or something) on it.
 
1021
1004
1037
1022
1026
1022
1039
1038
1008
1045
 
Group measures 1.45", nice and round, no flyers and it hits the same POA as the Rem SS. Did I mention I like this stuff?
 
Back to the Rem SS for a "shootout of the best"
 
1067
1031
1038
1054
1033
1019
1089
1054
1047
1034
 
And made a symetrical group of 1.84" with no flyers and no low ones.
 
I thought that was pretty good, and the box was open, so I shot 10 more.
 
998
1035
1072
1057
1035
1036
1041
1073
1049
1019
 
This group measured 2.09", and I admit I was not watching the wind flags at all for these. BUT despite that, the group was strung vertically, measuring only about 1.4" wide.
 
Back to the Lapua SSHP.
 
1037
1039
945
1016
1060
1058
1022
1038
1031
1049
 
These measure 1.92", nice round POA group. I think the bore was starting to foul somewhat at this point. I'm surprised that the 945fps one wasn't way low.
 
Fired 5 more Lapua Midas M, just to round things out.
 
1078
1082
1095
1086
 
These measure 1.5" for 5 shots. Strung vertically, only about 1/2" horizontal dispersion.
 
When I got home, I cleaned the rifle and found some leadding in the last few inches of the barrel. That 26" barrel seems to need a lot of lube.
 
Opinions? Observations? Ideas?
 
I'd like to get this thing to shoot sub-moa in no wind conditions.
 
I'm thinking of sorting by rim thickness using a .223 cartridge as a gauge.

As an inveterate number cruncher, I sincerely appreciate the effort expended in collecting and posting this info. I'll go through the MVs and see if I can tease any correlation between MV and vertical stringing. If you have the targets with the shot number and MV noted on the target, the analysis would be more statistically rigorous.  
 
Sounds to me like you've got your eye on a goal, and a strategy to achieve it. I don't recall; is that rifle 'scoped?
 
'I'll be bock' when I've finished the paper-whipping.
 
Paul

I didn't number the shots on target, only noticed if anything out of the ordinary happened and mentally noted it, like a shot that was way off in MV or far out of the group.
 
Yes, it's scoped, but not really well. It has a Trascho Target/Varmint 2.5-10x44AO on it - it's on it's 2nd one as the first gave up on windage adjustments and I had an opportunity to exchange it for another without money changing hands.

Hi All,

    Right I am not small bore shooter but have read a fair bit about it. One shooitng publication "Target Sports" had a series on serious small bore competition shooting, you know funny stiff jacket single point sling and glove 4" thick weighing 1/2 Cwt ( Oh 1/2Cwt is 56lbs).

  Well one thing comes across from this is that after cleaning a .22 LR barrel it takes a few shots, varible number , to settle down and season the bore with the lube on that particular type of bullet. The unburnt powder in the bore does not seem to effect the accuracy.

   Changing the brand or type of ammunition used it takes shooting some to re-season the bore with the new, different, lube and until this happens it will not perform as consistantly as it can. Even changing batches of ammo can make a difference which is why Eley offer the chance to go and compare batches at their range and once a batch is selected the shooter usually then buys a large batch of say 5000 rds of that ammo. As here in the UK not many if any FAC holders would have this sort of holding on their licence so arrangements have to be made to hold it at the club or a friendly local dealers to be drawn off as required. A batch of 5000 would normally see a competiton shooter through a year. Like all barrels each shows a preference in the ammo it likes.

  So bearing all this in mind perhaps when testing different ammo like this perhaps one should clean between each batch then fire a box of 50 say to season the bore before shooting for group and accuracy?

I have read what you say about "seasoning" before BH and have payed attention to my groups in regard to that.
 
From what I have seen with this rifle and these kinds of ammo, it does shoot a little better once it's a little dirty. But it also does stop shooting well once it gets too dirty and requires serious cleaning to get the accuracy back - not just dry patching like some of the .22 guys recommend.
 
The only thing I have noticed about switching ammo is that less lubricated ammo shoots better for a while after I have shot some of the more greasy target stuff and layed down a good coat of lube. The least lubricated ammo I shoot through this rifle is the Rem Subsonic, and it seems like it does eventually deposit some lead in the last few inches of the barrel after 100rds or so.
 
I have tried Crisco on a patch in the bore and it does help accuracy and leading a little with the Rem SS, but isn't conclusive enough to make it worthwhile to me considering the risk of corrosion from it.

Interesting thread....I've long since settled on standard ammo and noted
a more stable accuracy after fire of several rounds, but always thought it
was to clear the bore of nitro solvent cleaner ................Making an
effort to clean the bore after every 12 to 15 rounds suited me best...
Seasoning  the barrel as though a muzzle-loader never accured to me...
I'll be purchasing my ammo in larger quantities in the future...There may
be many ' a critter, will detest  you guys for this new found knowledge...
Thanks.......................................................................................................BH51.....

Hmm have you considered one of the surface metal treatments to reduce or eliminate the bore leading?

I have not noticed this problem on my  12/15 martini which has a 28" barrel on it but then again barrels seems to differ an awful lot even from the same maker and batch :undecided: . I rarely clean the barrels on my .22 rimfires but perhaps I don't shoot them enough to notice a problem? Am about to play in some little games on another forum with a couple of my 22's so we shall see how it goes although the Martini is not one I will be using as it's for sporters.