The 260 Remington AKA 6.5-8mm

Started by sakorick, December 12, 2007, 07:30:33 AM

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sakorick

I have chosen my next wildcat......the 6.5-8mm Ackley. I think Llano John built one sometime back. Any of you guys had any experience with this critter? I wonder how it stacks up to my 6mm-'06 Ackley? I am interested in another 400 yard deer rifle. Regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

Gmoney

Have played with the vanilla .260 Remington quite a bit for sure but not AI'ed...
 
I'm guessing you either meant the 6.5mm-08, not 6.5-8mm, or didn't mean to type .260 Remington?
-Greg
 
Personal field testing trumps everything no matter what Field and Stream says, what your degree of perceived manhood is, or what your buddies think.

gitano

What Gmoney said.
 
I have no personal experience with either the .260 Remington or the 6.5x57, Ackley'd or not. However, I of course like just about anything on either of the two cases. I don't think the .260 Remington, even Ackley'd, is gonna to compare favorably (in terms of trajectory) with the 6.5-06 at 400 yds unless you choose to use flat-based heavier bullets in the 63mm case and lighter-weight boat-tails in the 51mm (.308 Win) case.
 
According to QuickLoad, the AI'd .260 can get a Barnes 130-grain TSX going 3125 f/s. The 6.5-06 AI can get a 140-grain Hornady SP doing 3083 f/s.
 
I know this is not an apples to apples comparison.
 
I'm NOT trying to make a case for the .260 AI nor am I denigrating the '06. I'm simply making the comparison Rick asked for - the deer "lethality" of the .260 AI vs the 6.5-06 AI at 400 yds.
QuoteI am interested in another 400 yard deer rifle
[/SIZE]Use of identical bullets isn't necessary when "lethality" or "suitability" is what is being compared.
 
At 400 yds, when sighted in for a 6" target, the two bullets have the following drops and energies:
 
-11.9" & 1702 ft-lbs for the AI'd .260, and
-12.6" & 1753 ft-lbs for the 6.5-06.
 
A "push" as far as I'm concerned in both elevation and delivered energy. Very few would argue that 1700 ft-lbs of impact energy isn't enough for a white-tailed deer. "Experts" say 1000 ft-lbs is both sufficient and reasonable. Both the 400 yd velocities are in excess of 2200 f/s. 2000 f/s is usually the minimum impact velocity manufacturers like to state as that required for consistent terminal bullet performance.
 
HOWEVER, the above results are developed using the Barnes TSX bullet. In my experience, the claimed BCs of all Barnes bullets I have handled are quite "optimistic". Barnes' values for their TSXs are, in my unverified opinion, literally incredible. Readers are encouraged to draw their own conclusions.
 
That said, I think the Ackley'd 57mm Mauser case will come a lot closer to the performance of the AI'd 6.5-'06 case. According to QuickLoad, the two case capacities are: 67.45 grains of water for the 6.5-06 AI, and 65.5 for the 6.5x57 AI. For comparison, the .260 AI case capacity is 58.5 grains of water.
 
Personally, if I had a rifle chambered in a particular caliber on a 63mm case, and I was looking to use the same caliber but change cases, I'd go to the one most different from the one I currently had. In this example, I'd choose the 51mm case over the 57mm case if I already had a 63mm case. If I didn't already have the caliber on a 63mm case, I'd choose the 57mm case to start with. But that's just me. :D
 
They're all great deer cartridges.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

sakorick

I guess that's why I said 6.5-8mm when I meant to say 6.5-08. I've got 8-57 on my mind for some reason.

Paul....I am shooting the 120gr Nosler Accubond at 3330'/sec with my 6.5-'06AI. I'll have to check my notes on the load.....I know it's hot as the primer sockets loosen up after 2 loads. I was going to back it off .5 grain when reloading the next batch.

I wonder what the 57mm case length would produce in the 6.5 Ackley? Regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

Gmoney

Rick,
 
Don't mean to sound snippant but I'm also guessing you meant to say the 130 Accubond as Nosler does not make a 120 Accubond in .264...
 
I've run the 85 and 100 Sierra HP's out of my .260, along with the 120 Ballistic tip, 100 and 125 Nosler Partitions, and the 120 Speer Hot-cor...
 
Not sure what you want to know but there it is...
-Greg
 
Personal field testing trumps everything no matter what Field and Stream says, what your degree of perceived manhood is, or what your buddies think.

sakorick

Quote from: Gmoney;69897Rick,
 
Don't mean to sound snippant but I'm also guessing you meant to say the 130 Accubond as Nosler does not make a 120 Accubond in .264...
 
I've run the 85 and 100 Sierra HP's out of my .260, along with the 120 Ballistic tip, 100 and 125 Nosler Partitions, and the 120 Speer Hot-cor...
 
Not sure what you want to know but there it is...

Yep, that was snippy..... My brain at nearly 62 can't quite keep up with 30 odd calibers with all the myriad of permatations therein. My load for the 6.5-'06 Ackley is 59 grains of RL22, with a CCI primer and a 120Grain Nosler Ballastic Tip......MV=3330'/sec.

Gmoney, you made me drive up to the barn and look this up.....there is 3 inches of ice around here and it's dark!! At least I knew it was a 120 grain Nosler!!!!!:biggthumpup:

I would really like to see some 6.5-8MM AI data as the 6.5-08 AI is just a marginal clone. Regards, Rick

Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

gitano

Rick,
 
I went to the Nosler website, and they don't list a 120 Accubond. If indeed you are refering to the 130 Accubond the numbers for the 6.5x57 AI using the same bullet are:
 
Muzzle velocity at 56,565 PSI chamber pressure = 3187 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -10.9"
Energy at 400 yds = 1802 ft-lbs
 
I can't get QuickLoad to predict a 3330 f/s muzzle velocity and keep the chamber pressure below 63,000 PSI (SAAMI max for the 6.5-06 AI). I can get it to 3289 f/s at 63 kPSI. For the 6.5-06 AI and a 130-grain Accubond at 3330 f/s QL predicts:
 
Muzzle velocity at a predicted 65,766 PSI chamber pressure = 3330 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -10.3"
Energy at 400 yds = 1976 ft-lbs
 
Considering the elevation at 400 yards (-10.9" and -10.2") to be "equal", the Mauser case delivers 0.0319 ft-lbs per PSI; the 63mm case delivers 0.300 ft-lbs per PSI. Put the other way, it takes 31.4 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of delivered energy at 400 yards in the 57mm case. In the 63mm case it takes 33.3 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of energy at 400 yds. In the 57mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 931 PSI. In the 63mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 1045 PSI. So...
 
1 grain of powder in the 57mm case delivers 29.67 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
1 grain of powder in the 63mm case delivers 31.41 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

gitano

#7
Now look what you did! I'lll hafta calculate all that for the 120.
 
 
For the 120 Ballistic Tip the numbers for the 6.5x57 AI using the same bullet are:
 
Muzzle velocity at 56,565 PSI chamber pressure = 3293 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -9.9"
Energy at 400 yds = 1723 ft-lbs
 
I can't get QuickLoad to predict a 3330 f/s muzzle velocity with 59 grains of RL 25. For the 6.5-06 AI and a 120-grain Accubond QL predicts:
 
Muzzle velocity at a predicted 60,866 PSI chamber pressure = 3197 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -11.1"
Energy at 400 yds = 1615 ft-lbs
 
Still considering the elevation at 400 yards (-9.9" and -11.1") to be "equal", the Mauser case delivers 0.0305 ft-lbs per PSI; the 63mm case delivers 0.0265 ft-lbs per PSI. Put the other way, it takes 32.8 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of delivered energy at 400 yards in the 57mm case. In the 63mm case it takes 37.7 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of energy at 400 yds. In the 57mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 931 PSI. In the 63mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 1086 PSI. So...
 
1 grain of powder in the 57mm case delivers 28.4 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
1 grain of powder in the 63mm case delivers 27.4 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
 
Take it as you see it.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

sakorick

Quote from: gitano;69905Now look what you did! I'lll hafta calculate all that for the 120.
 
 
For the 120 Ballistic Tip the numbers for the 6.5x57 AI using the same bullet are:
 
Muzzle velocity at 56,565 PSI chamber pressure = 3293 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -9.9"
Energy at 400 yds = 1723 ft-lbs
 
I can't get QuickLoad to predict a 3330 f/s muzzle velocity with 59 grains of RL 25. For the 6.5-06 AI and a 120-grain Accubond QL predicts:
 
Muzzle velocity at a predicted 60,866 PSI chamber pressure = 3197 f/s
Drop at 400 yd when sighted in for a 6" target = -11.1"
Energy at 400 yds = 1615 ft-lbs
 
Still considering the elevation at 400 yards (-9.9" and -11.1") to be "equal", the Mauser case delivers 0.0305 ft-lbs per PSI; the 63mm case delivers 0.0265 ft-lbs per PSI. Put the other way, it takes 32.8 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of delivered energy at 400 yards in the 57mm case. In the 63mm case it takes 37.7 PSI to generate 1 ft-lb of energy at 400 yds. In the 57mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 931 PSI. In the 63mm case, 1 grain of powder generates 1086 PSI. So...
 
1 grain of powder in the 57mm case delivers 28.4 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
1 grain of powder in the 63mm case delivers 27.4 ft-lbs of energy at 400 yds.
 
Take it as you see it.
 
Paul

Now, those are some awsome numbers. Well, I ain't going to ditch the '06AI yet, however, the 6.5-8mm AI will be my next project......need to get a house built first! Where is Llano John??????? Regards, Rick
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

Gmoney

Quote from: sakorick;69900Yep, that was snippy..... My brain at nearly 62 can't quite keep up with 30 odd calibers with all the myriad of permatations therein. My load for the 6.5-'06 Ackley is 59 grains of RL22, with a CCI primer and a 120Grain Nosler Ballastic Tip......MV=3330'/sec.

Gmoney, you made me drive up to the barn and look this up.....there is 3 inches of ice around here and it's dark!! At least I knew it was a 120 grain Nosler!!!!!:biggthumpup:

I would really like to see some 6.5-8MM AI data as the 6.5-08 AI is just a marginal clone. Regards, Rick


Sorry Rick...grin....
 
:biggthumpup:
-Greg
 
Personal field testing trumps everything no matter what Field and Stream says, what your degree of perceived manhood is, or what your buddies think.

Nelsdou

I don't think you can go wrong with anything in a 6.5.  I once attempted to "test" the penetration of the Hornady .268 RN bullet out of my lowly Carcano but never could get enough catalogs stacked together to capture any bullets, so I gave up, called it good 'nuff.

Hope you're staying warm with that last ice storm, Rick.

Nels

Put it into perspective; we live on a rock hurtling through space, what could be scarier than that?

LLANOJOHN (deceased)

#11
Quote from: sakorick;69906 Where is Llano John??????? Regards, Rick

I is here or a reasonable facimile thereof!:biggthumpup:
 
Before I proceed......there is a "sticky" at the top of this forum very properly named..."6.5mm, is this the perfect caliber?":biggthumpup: :biggthumpup: :biggthumpup: Of course it is!!!!:greentongue:
 
The best brass to use for the 6.5x57 or AI version, IMHO, would be .257 'bob' necked up. The 6.5x57AI is really named the .260 AAR (all around rifle) if memory serves me correctly.:Banghead: I still hope to build one of these when fortune and a shop(sooon!!) become available.:undecided:
 
The 'sticky' discusses many of the 6.5 cartridge versions and the predicted velocities at close, but no more than, 60,000# psi.
 
A very good choice of cartrides thar, brother Rick!!:biggthumpup: Especially if you plan to use a '98 Mauser action. Hope you "git er done":hat:
 
Ol' John:sleeping:
Life Member-NRA-TSRA
Riflesmith-Bolt & Lever Centerfires Only
Left-Hand Creek Rifles
Mark Twain was right-"There is no such thing as too much good whiskey!"
My best advice.."Best to stay outta trees and offa windmills!"

gitano

Quote.260 ARR

Right you are John.
 
or 6.5 ARR as QL has it.
 
QL's predicted MV at 56531 PSI is 3141 f/s, 11.9" low at 400, and 1553 ft-lbs. My guess this is a more accurate estimate of the relationship between the external ballistics of the 57mm case and the 63 mm case.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

Paul Hoskins

As John pointed out the 6.5AI X57 has been around many years and it has to be a fine cartridge. It was introduced by the Apex Rifle Company many years ago. While I have never owned or built one, I do have the makings as well as the dies. My intentions are to base it on the 444 Marlin case for use in a Hi Wall Win. action since this case is the same as the 57 Mausers but with a small rim which is required of the HI Wall action. ...............Paul H

Paul Hoskins

Incidentally, cases are easily formed by loading 257 Roberts cases with around 12 to 14 grs. Unique and filling the case with cornmeal or cream of wheat and topping off with a wad of paper, load and fire. No need to neck up or down. Perfectly fire formed cases and no wasted bullets.  .........Paul H

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