I was looking at Encore barrels the other day and noticed that they offer them in .460 S&W. I looked at the .460 ammo that's available and saw that they offer a plastic tipped Hornady bullet in 200gr that flat smokes from the S&W 460 revolver. Then I saw an article by JD Jones that lists this load around **2700fps**!! out of a 15" Encore. He mentioned necking down the .500 S&W to smaller calibers in the Encore and getting some serious velocity from it also.
 
Hmm...
 
I have a .45Colt Ruger Bisley and looked to see if the plastic tipped Hornady bullets were available for reloading, where I could load these for it, mostly just to see if I could. I realize velocity would still be around 12-1300fps like any similar bullet, and this bullet is not the magic component in the .30-06-like velocity and energy of the .460.
 
I was also looking at the Encore muzzle-loader barrels, and looked at loading data from T/C for these, that listed a very similar plastic tipped bullet in a .50 caliber sabot, or a .40 caliber bullet in a .45 caliber sabot for the .45 barrels.
 
Then I see that the state of the art in rifled slug guns is a very similar bullet in a sabot.
 
So I gets to thinkin.....
 
Could I buy the Hornady muzzle loader bullets, discard the sabots, and load them in my .45 Colt to make neat looking red-plastic tipped cartridges with a tiny increase in ballistic coeficient? They have no cannelure, so I'd have to use a .45 ACP taper crimp die on these. If that would work?
 
But the REAL question is:
 
*COULD* a person load these muzzle-loader sabots AND bullets into a centerfire cartridge, say the .50 sabot with .45 bullet into a .500 S&W? Or the .45 sabot with .40 bullet into a .460 S&W? I imagine that you'd have to seat them deep and roll crimp over the front edge of the sabot.
 
Possible problems I see: Keeping the bullet in the sabot while loaded into the case during handling. Reduced powder capacity due to deep seating the sabot (factory-crimp die, crimping on the sabot?) And if you tried this in a revolver, the sabot might open *in* the barrel cylinder gap? *cringe*
 
Well, what do you think?

The Alaskan is .511", isn't it?

The .50 Alaskan's bore diameter is .510".
 
I don't think you'll have the problems you think you will loading pre-fab sabots in cartridge cases. I've considered it myself more than once. Also, you shouldn't HAVE to have ANY crimp, EXCEPT for bullets in revolver cylinders. I'd give a whirl and see what happens... Remembering to post the results here at THL.
 
To tell the truth, I'm looking very hard at the 50 S&W. In my opinion, (and drinksgin's), it's an outstanding cartridge for the H&R Handi-Rifle. (Don tried to get me to consider the 50 S&W when I was thinking about a .50 caliber for the Martini.) There are cartridges you can get more velocity out of than the 50 S&W, but that velocity is un-needed for the most part. A 400-grain bullet doing 1900-ish f/s is a 'thumper'. Any more than that velocity quickly yields diminishing returns. The 50 S&W is, as you probably know, a .500" caliber bore. That means you have a far greater selection of OTC bullets, and even more when you consider the ML sabot'd bullets.
 
Finally, if you want good bullets at a good price, you can have pretty much whatever your little heart desires from Northwest Custom Projectiles. Tell Bob (the Bullet Man), 'Paul' sent ya.
 
Paul

Paul, the 500 S&W in the NEF Handi Rifle is a brain buster. It didn't take me long to get rid of it. Even with moderate loads and cast bullets, it beat me so bad that it was difficult to pull the trigger after ten shots. The sucker I had weighed 7 pounds three ounces with the old K4 Weaver on it. A friend that can handle recoil shot it three times and handed it back to me and said"no mas." I kept around 100 cases with the idea of making a single shot 45-500 on the Mosin Nagent action but have about decided not to bother since I would never use it. I made a set of loading dies for the 45-500 but only necked down two or three cases. It looks like it would be a real thumper on larger game. I simply can't handle the vicious recoil and I really have no need for such a varmint. I shot a few 300 gr. saboted bullets in the 500 but the accuracy went left  on me. I din't chrono any of it...........Paul H

Incidentally Paul, the NEF 500 S&W has a .492 bore dia. and a .500 groove dia............Paul H

Well, since I don't own any .50" firearms right now, I won't be testing this very soon.
 
But I am looking at Encore barrels, such as the .500 and .460 in either 15" or 20".
 
I might try some .45 sabots with .40 bullets in my .45LC Bisley, just to see what happens.
 
But I am a little leary of this, since there is no load data, and since I like my hands and arms somewhat. I will have to crimp in this application. Any suggestions?
 
.50BMG Accelerator anyone? LOL

Actually, the DoD made (still makes?) an "Accelerator" for the .50 BMG. If I remember correctly it's a 180-grain AP .30 cal. bullet pushin' 5,000 f/s.
 
As for loads for the .45 LC, I'd simply start with Cowboy Action loads and work up. I don't shoot CAS, but if I remember correctly, they are restricted to 19th century muzzle velocities, which are subsonic. You won't have to worry about your "hands and arms" with those loads.
 
I second Paul Hoskins' comments regarding accuracy with sabots. In my "speed uber alles" days, I shot thousands of rounds of sabot'd .22 caliber bullets in .30 M1, .308 Win, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag. While some of the velocities were impressive, the accuracies" (precisions) were, for the most part, disappointing and unacceptable.
 
Paul

The barrel to cylinder gap jump bothers me still, along with the crimp. I figure that nothing bad would happen, but I don't know all the variables of the transition from barrel to cylinder with a sabot.
 
I guess I could start by shooting a few with just sabots and primers to see what happens and work up from there, inspecting the sabots to see what's going on.
 
Sounds like a fun basement project.....

Quote from: subsonic;66765The barrel to cylinder gap jump bothers me still,

I think your concern is well-founded but shouldn't prevent a well-thought-out experiment. The sabot-only with primer-only sounds like a good place to start. Also, if the cylinder/forcing cone gap is large, you could use longer cases that get closer to the breech of the barrel, without preventing rotation of the cylinder.
 
One of the drawbacks of sabots, (especially from the DoD's perspective), is that they cannot be fired from arms fitted with muzzle brakes. This, of course due to the petals of the sabot opening (disasterously) in the brake. However, in a revolver, there is almost always a forcing cone in the breech-end of the barrel. The forcing cone allows for a little slop in alignment between the cylinder/bullet and barrel. I think the forcing cone in your .45 may mitigate any small opening of the sabot's petals in that gap, but some forcing cones are smaller than others.
 
Finally, as you probably already know, a casual look at the frame/cylinder relationship in a revolver can lead one to think that the gap between the two is large. However, in most cases, if the breech of the barrel with the cylinder in firing position is examined, the actual gap between cylinder and barrel (as opposed to the cylinder and frame), is very small - too small to be a problem relative to using sabot'd bullets.
 
Paul

Well, if it doesn't work out, I'll have some nifty looking .40 SST bullets left over to try in my 10mm.

Well, I have all the components required for this test.....
 
Now for some weather that makes me want to play outside again!
 
I'll upload some pics in a day or two of a mocked up 45LC round with the .40/sabot and a red tipped .45 bullet.

Looking forward to the results.
 
Paul

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Picture 1:
 
The max OAL that will fit in the cylinder is 1.705" This one is mocked up at 1.700" As you can see, I'm going to have to crimp OVER the ogive to do this. I tried a case with a cannelure, as you can see, but the bullet is actually about 1/8" BELOW that canelure. Case wasn't resized... Sure looks impressive
 
Picture 2:
 
Hornady 250gr .451" SST muzzleloader bullet, w/o sabot, RCBS 270-SAA, and then a Cast Performance 335gr WLNGC for length comparison.
 
Picture 3:
 
Same thing, different order. I took a sharpie and marked as close as I could to the case mouth for crimp lenth comparison. The sharpie line would be just outside of the case.
 
Picture 4:
 
Same bullets, plus a 155gr .401" "bushwacker" bulk cast bullet with the crayon, uh I mean lube melted off and a Harvester .45 sabot for .40 bullets.
 
Picture 5:
 
The same 250gr SST and the 270-SAA, plus one of those 155gr .401" bullets sitting in the sabot (basically the same length as that CP 335gr WFNGC from the other picture) and the yellow tipped things are 200gr .40" T/C Shockwave (Made by Hornady for T/C, same as SST) that are meant for .45 muzzleloaders or can be used in a .50 with "blue" sabots. As you can see, these are simply too long to make work in my gun and still have much powder room. I might shoot some anyway, just because I'm stubborn.
 
Picture 6:
 
Then I shot some sabots with primers. I started with CCI 300 pistol primers and used the same old case for all shots. I seated the sabot out about where it will be when loaded, but was not particular about it. I shot the first sabot 2x out of an unsized, uncrimped case after picking it up and looking at it. Then I sized the case and crimped it.  This is that far left sabot in the picture that made 3 trips. Oddly enough, the rifling didn't engrave it until the 3rd trip down the tube. The third shot made the lower one of the 2 holes in the center of that cardboard box and stopped inside the box. 4th shot was the same with a "fresh" sabot, just above the first shot, also stayed in the box. Rifling engraved this one. POI is about 4" low, even 5ft away in the basement. The 5th shot was with a fresh sabot, CCI 350 Magnum primer, with the case sized and crimped. This one went through the top layer of box, the divider inside, almost through the back of the box, and bounced back at me.  Was interesting:eek:. This made the hole on the left side of the box. Rifling engraved this one also.  
 
The 6th shot was also with a CCI 350 primer, with the sabot seated all the way against the primer hole, case sized and crimped. This one sang on through the box, hit the cement wall behind leaving a mark, and went spinning across the room. The dog hid under the desk upstairs. No rifling engraving on this one. But I think it's because the case "swaged" the sabot down when I drove it that deep into the smaller diameter where the case walls are thicker.
 
None of these sabots opened up in flight, or show any dammage to the petals and left no plastic at the barrel/cylinder gap.
 
Picture 7:
 
Shows the back of the box and the sabots again. Left to right the sabots are the one that made 3 trips, shot 4, 5, then 6 that looks most mangled.

Gun used for above test was my 5.5" Ruger Accu-Sport Bisley in .45Colt.