It's always interesting when a particular cartridge becomes the basis for a wide range of wildcat cartridges.
The 30-06 was an obvious one as was the 308 and it's not hard to see why there were plenty of 30-30 based wildcats as well.
The WSMs have also become a popular basis.
But it amazes me that such a large capacity case as the 45-70 which operates so well within the Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886 rifles never was the basis for popular wildcats.
There are some like the 416 Barnes, designed by the late Frank Barnes of Cartridges of the World fame, but presently there are no 45-70 wildcats that have been adopted as proprietary cartridges.
Anyone know why?

I'm guessing here, but...
 
Isn't the 45/70 a rimmed cartridge?  I've never owned or shot it, but seems I remember it being rimmed.
 
If that's the case, it might have something to do with wildcatters being more interested in bolt action rifles than levers.  The lever actions sometimes just don't offer the fine accuracy and performance of a bolt action rifle, and accuracy/performance are two big reasons for wildcatting.  With the tubular magazines requiring (until recently) round nosed bullets, as well as the action of a lever not being as tight as a bolt, they don't quite compare.
 
At least in the minds of many shooters.
 
Granted, rimmed cartridges will work fine in single shot rifles, but the fact that they don't feed all that well from a bolt action would limit interest, I'd think.
 
Other than that, I don't know.

Yeah, the 45-70 is rimmed, but just imagine a a sharp shouldered 30-70, 35-70 or 38-70.
Even with the 38,000 to 40,000 CUP limitations of the 1895 action that would be a cracker of a charge behind a light bullet.
It may not yield much more accuracy but it would certainly yield more power in an existing case.
Frank Barnes was quite surprised that Marlin showed no interest whatsoever in his 416/45-70 and I can see why.
The figures are quite something.
And in a Ruger #1......well, the skies the limit.

There might be something to it, kombi.
 
Maybe you need to work on the idea?
 
That's the great thing about wildcats; they don't have to depend on someone else for developing.  Maybe a 38/70 Kombi is the in future. :D
 
Daryl

Taking a .45 down to a caliber that would make it worth doing would require some intermediate steps to other neck sizes. Most wildcats that are popular are also easy to make or fill a (perceived) niche that can't be done with something else that's commonly available.
 
BUT, the .444 Marlin is VERY popular. I think this has to do with the fact that you can use standard .358, .308, or 8x57, 7x57 etc dies to make rimmed things from it.

I would tend to agree with Daryl's comments in general - the rimmed case - but in fact there is a small 'mountain' of cartridges of length 2.1" or less having a nominal rim diameter of 0.608". Meaning they are the same as the .45-70. The resulting cartridges are rarely listed as .45-70 "wildcats". Instead, being made from the "45 Basic" case, they have their own names. Also, by the time "wildcats" on rimmed cartridges was again in vogue, the .444 Marlin case (length = 2.225", rim diameter = .540"), was available with its "modern" action. Consequently when someone wanted to build a rimmed wildcat - usually for increased MV meaning increased chamber pressure - they chose the Marlin case instead of the .45-70. Almost all of the JDJ wildcats - some now factory cartridges - are based on the .444 Marlin case which is essentially the .30-40 Krag. The number of cartridges using that .540" rim diameter is amazing. I'll go through Donnely's book and list some of the cartridges based on the 45 Basic (.45-70) case.
 
Paul
 
.280 Flanged Nitro Express
.30 Howell
.30/348 Win - Here's your .30/.45-70
.33 Winchester - Here's a .338/.45-70
.348 Winchester - Here's a .348/.45-70
.35/.348 Win - Here's a .358/.454-70
.38-56 Winchester - A .375/.45-70, which BTW is listed as a .45-70 "wildcat"
.38-70 Winchester - ditto
.38-72 Winchester - ditto
.38-90 Winchester - ditto
.40-50 Sharps - Another .45-70 "wildcat"
.40-60 Marlin - Another .45-70 "wildcat"
.40-60 Winchester - Another .45-70 "wildcat"
.40-65 Ballard Everlasting
.40-65 - Winchester - Another .45-70 "wildcat"
.40-70 Remington
.40-90 Sharps Necked
.40-70 Sharps Necked
.40-70 Winchester
.40-82 Winchester
.40-85 Ballard
.40-90 Sharps Straight
and so forth...
 
Paul

Dredging this thread up for a quibble:

The  wildcats based on the 348 Winchester case are not 45-70 wildcats.

The parent case of the 348 is the 50-110 Winchester.  The rim diameter of both the 50-110 and the 45-70 is about 0.608" as gitano noted.  However, the body of the 50-110 is about 0.553", approximately 1/20-inch greater than the .45-70 body.

The 50-110 case and its derivatives can hold about 20 percent more powder than a .45-70 case for a given case length.

Donnelly has both rim and body diameters listed incorrectly for the 348 Winchester, at 0.547" and 0.603".  He does correctly indicate these two dimensions for the 348 Improved, the 50-110, the 30 Howell, the 35/348, the 450 Alaskan, the 450 Fuller, the 450/348 Improved, etc.

Thanks.

--Bob

I'm not too concerned about splitting the hairs of whether a cartridge derived from a .348 Winchester is a derivative of the .45-70 Government or the .50-100. I do acknowlege that the .50-110 head diameter of 0.553" is closer (actually the same nominally) as the .348's, and the nominal .45-70 head diameter is listed as 0.5055". But that wasn't really the point I was trying to make in my post.
 
What I was trying to get across was that at the time of introduction of the .45-70 government, there was no smokeless powder, and no "small" caliber bullets like .243s, or .257s, or .264s, or .277s or .284s or .308s etc. (And please don't dredge up some obscure Kentucky squirrel rifle and point to it's .32 caliber bore as "proof" such calibers existed. Of course "small" calibers existed but they didn't exist in commercial numbers, and more importantly people weren't "wildcatting" them). And, as I said in my post, by the time small calibers were commercially available AND the pasttime called "wildcatting" had reached it's stride, the .45-70 was passe', and other "modern" (not balloon construction) rimmed cases were available.
 
I have no "allegiance" to the .45-70 or the .50-100, or the .348 Win or any other cartridge, and as a consequence, don't much care about a wildcat's "pedigree". I was simply pointing out that "Re: 45-70 Wildcats.......why aren't there any?" (the thread's topic) wasn't exactly correct, and was trying to get an idea across: Most big-rimmed cartridge "wildcats" of today owe their origins to the .45-70 Gov't. I admit that I technically took too broad a brush to the .348 Win-derived wildcats. Nonetheless, there are many truly, and technically, .45-70 wildcats.
 
Neither do I represent myself as an expert on the history of American firearms - quite the contrary actually. That said, here is something from some folks that do consider themselves experts:
 

Quote

Sponsors of Leverguns.Com

The Model 71 Winchester
and the .348 WCF Cartridge
Jim Taylor
The Model 71 Winchester was the culmination of the large-frame leverguns produced by the famed old company. Introduced in 1936 it was an upgrade of the famous Model 1886. Designed to make manufacturing a bit easier with improvements to handle the new cartridge that was introduced with it, this was the last of the big-frame leverguns made by Winchester.
The Model 1886 was designed during the black powder era for large black powder cartridges. Chambered for a variety of calibers including the .45-70, the Model 1886, was adapted to a new smokeless powder medium bore cartridge called the .33 WCF in 1902. The .33 Winchester was intended for hunting large North American game and used .338" diameter bullets, the same size used in today's .338 Magnums. However, by the 1930's the .33 WCF was looking a bit underpowered. That and the increased costs for the production of the 1886 (along with the slowdown of the economy) had Winchester looking around at ways to cut costs in the production of the big leveraction.
THE RIFLE

A redesign of many of the internal parts along with the introduction of a new caliber was Winchester's plan to get the costs down and to market the package. The redesigned '86 was renamed the Model 71 and the rest, as they say, is history. The rifle was produced in only one caliber .. the .348 WCF .. and it is the only factory rifle ever chambered for this round.

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Welllll......

I believe there was a whole series based upon the .45-70 case and you could call them 'sorta' proprietary.

There was a bottle neck version in .30, .35, .375 and .40 calibers.  I used to have the whole set but I have only the .35 caliber now.  The others were 'borrowed' by 'friends'.    

I've seen them chambered in the '86 and '71 actions and have handled them but never shot them.  I believe that they were developed specifically for those actions with 'carbine' length barrels.  To that extent you could say they were 'sorta' proprietary.

There was also the .22 Jenkins Jap but, as I recall, it was based upon the 12 gauge brass shotgun case.

Paul-

Thank you for your kind words of welcome to the site.  Google found your post in this thread that mentioned the 30 Howell, a cartridge in which I am really interested.

Your informative reply is also appreciated, and I'll attempt to remain similarly focused on swapping information.

So, a couple of further comments:

Quote from: gitanoWhat I was trying to get across was that at the time of introduction of the .45-70 government, there was no smokeless powder, and no "small" caliber bullets like .243s, or .257s, or .264s, or .277s or .284s or .308s etc. (And please don't dredge up some obscure Kentucky squirrel rifle and point to it's .32 caliber bore as "proof" such calibers existed. Of course "small" calibers existed but they didn't exist in commercial numbers, and more importantly people weren't "wildcatting" them). And, as I said in my post, by the time small calibers were commercially available AND the pasttime called "wildcatting" had reached it's stride, the .45-70 was passe', and other "modern" (not balloon construction) rimmed cases were available.

It's certainly true that no smokeless powders were available in 1873, and there seem to be no records of private individuals trying to squeeze down any early large-capacity cases to fit small bullets. That is an unrewarding effort with black powder.

However, large commercial quantities of 22 caliber bullets did exist in the form of the 22 short cartridge, which had been in production since 1857.  Some rifles  for the 22 short existed at least four years before the 45-70 was introduced.  The absence of wildcats was not due to lack of small caliber bullets.

Winchester and Stevens introduced 22 caliber black powder center fire cartridges within a dozen years after the 45-70 first appeared.

Quote from: gitanoI see no reference to a .50-110 in the .348 WCF's 'pedigree'.

I think your Leverguns quoted passage was taken from this article by Taylor: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model71.htm.    
Just a bit further on in that article I found this statement:

Quote from:  Jim Taylor The Cartridge
The 348 was based on the old .50-110 WCF cartridge and is the largest-sized rim diameter used in factory leverguns.

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I am puzzled by this part of your post:

 My confusion arises because of your supplied emphasis.  I doubt you were referring to the difference between the base diameter of the 45-70 vs the 50-110.  The difference there is 5-hundreths of an inch, a couple of orders of magnitude greater than the variation that Howell said was unworrisome.  I apologize for missing your point.