Third time's a charm... Range report on John's MAI

Started by gitano, April 08, 2005, 08:32:26 PM

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Hunterbug

It's a nice looking rig that he's got there. That would make a great short range elk rifle.
Ask not what your government can do for you. Ask how your government can go away and get out of your life.
 
 
The unarmed man is is not only defenseless, he is also contemptible.
Niccolo Machiavelli

Noyb72

#31
Gitano
 
Absolutly understand your intent of the experiment, I was just throwing out one of my own. It looks like I changed the path of this thread a bit, and I apologize for that. It wasn't my intent.
 
I have never thought of using .35 caliber pistol bullets in a rifle. I have never been a big fan of .35 caliber rifles, but I absolutly LOVE the .357 MAG. This may begin a new love afair. I really like using the same bullet for a pistol and a rifle. How about a 200gn LBT WFN in the .358 Win? It may be light for elk or larger critters, but bamby and below would be mine, either in the Blackhawk or the (sorry John,) left handed Savage model 10.
 
Gitano, in your .338 MAI/ Win Mag comparison, are you refering to effective barrel length, or actual barrel length. The MAI is a shorter case, so it, in effect, has a longer barrel, or so I understand it. I know the case counts in the overall pressure chamber size, and I don't really understand how it all works, but I know a longer rifled tube makes a bullet faster.
Ron

LLANOJOHN (deceased)

Quote from: Noyb72I have never thought of using .35 caliber pistol bullets in a rifle. I have never been a big fan of .35 caliber rifles, but I absolutly LOVE the .357 MAG. This may begin a new love afair. I really like using the same bullet for a pistol and a rifle. How about a 200gn LBT WFN in the .358 Win? It may be light for elk or larger critters, but bamby and below would be mine, either in the Blackhawk or the (sorry John,) left handed Savage model 10.
 
 
Ron
Winchester, Remington or Savage.........it makes no never-mind.  Short, stout barrel, 358 Winchester cartridge..use pistol bullets on smaller game with the lighter weights...use rifle bullets on bigger stuff at higher velocities when/where needed.  Build your load to suit the hunting situation.  Savage Model 10 left handed would fill the necessary requirements for a good action.  I missed the fact you were a different arm shooter.  Now this combo only works for folks with brown or blue eyes.........green or hazel eyed shooters need not apply!.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

Ol' John..:D
Life Member-NRA-TSRA
Riflesmith-Bolt & Lever Centerfires Only
Left-Hand Creek Rifles
Mark Twain was right-"There is no such thing as too much good whiskey!"
My best advice.."Best to stay outta trees and offa windmills!"

gitano

#33
Quote from: RonGitano, in your .338 MAI/ Win Mag comparison, are you refering to effective barrel length, or actual barrel length. Actual. The MAI is a shorter case, so it, in effect, has a longer barrel, or so I understand it. Correct. I know the case counts in the overall pressure chamber size, and I don't really understand how it all works, but I know a longer rifled tube makes a bullet faster. Only loosely speaking.
There is only so much chemical energy in a given amount of a specific powder. Confining a comparison between two cartridges to the use of a single powder, the chemical energy content is porportional to the weight of the charge. The longer the bbl, the greater the opportunity to convert "all" of the chemical energy to kinetic energy. However, at some point, all of the available chemical energy has been converted to kinetic energy, heat, sound, and light. A longer bbl matters not beyond that point. In fact, beyond that point, the bullet will go slower in a longer bbl because friction is still present, without any added energy from the exhausted powder.
 
Internal ballistics is very complicated. For example, as you state, the effective length of a 24" MAI bbl is 'longer' than the effective length of a 24" .338 Mag bbl. However, the combustion chamber of the Mag is considerably larger by virtue of the larger case. Upon ignition, pressure will build in both cases of course, but the combusiton rate,and therefore the conversion efficiency (what percentage of the powder's chemical energy actually ends up as kinetic energy), is a function of pressure. The rate powder burns depends on pressure, so... if the pressure in the smaller case builds faster, the burn rate will increase making more pressure, making it burn faster, making more pressure ... How that translates to muzzle velocity is extremely difficult to model. It is far easier to simply emperically deterime what the outcome (MV) is with different chamber dimensions, charges, and powder types. This is precisely why there are precious few "formulae" for predicting the 'best' or even 'correct' charge for a given cartridge.

There are myriad other variables, such as how the powder lays in the case upon firing, or how the powder is ignited, or what the chamber temperature is at ignition... that make internal ballistics a real 'rat's nest' scientifically.

Generally speaking, if speed is your only goal, you probably need the longest bbl and largest case you can practically devise. As in most things real, compromises are neccesary for a 'well-balanced' device having the broadest practical applications. Voila'... the modern hunting rifle with 24" bbl. Not 'best' at any one thing, but very good at many things.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

Noyb72

John
I'm in!! Ma and Pop saw fit to give me baby blues. I think the 200gn LBT would work for everything though, just need to slow it way down for bunnies or get it moving right along for bigger critters. Now I need to decide, am I working on this first or am I going to build my sons 338 MAI? I'll bet he won't get maried before I put the Savage together.
 
Paul
All sounds good to me. So, if we use a short action and 51mm case, and put a long tube on it to match the length of our 24" 30-06, I think the shorter will be way ahead of the game.

dannytoro

.......I think I'd like to try the 350 MAI route. But while used intermediate length actions are everywhere, does anyone make a new intermediate length action? Or if I'm going to the new action, should I just settle for the commonly available long (30-06 length)action. I'd love to keep it to the intermediate length, but I do not want to break the bank either.....or am I being overly weary of surplus mausers-lol.....

LLANOJOHN (deceased)

Quote from: dannytoro.......I think I'd like to try the 350 MAI route. But while used intermediate length actions are everywhere, does anyone make a new intermediate length action? Or if I'm going to the new action, should I just settle for the commonly available long (30-06 length)action. I'd love to keep it to the intermediate length, but I do not want to break the bank either.....or am I being overly weary of surplus mausers-lol.....
Well, neighbor I don't know of any intermediate actions available other than the ol' 98 Mausers.  That doesn't mean that there aren't some out there.  Please remember that when Paul and I came up with the idea of the 338 MAI that it was designed for the 98 Mauser action.  Actions can be found for about $100-125 dollars and you will need to drill/tap, new bolt handle and if you really want, an aftermarket trigger.  I personally don't have a problem with the 2 stage military trigger and that is what Paul is working with in the prototype rifle he is now testing.  I would strongly suggest that if you desire to use a 30=06 length action that you go with a 338=06 or a 35 Whelen.  I don't see any reason to go with the .338 MAI on a long length action.  You are simply not maximizing your potential going that way.  I realize that I am not being a good salesman by this statement but thats the way I do things.
 
Ol' John..;) :D
Life Member-NRA-TSRA
Riflesmith-Bolt & Lever Centerfires Only
Left-Hand Creek Rifles
Mark Twain was right-"There is no such thing as too much good whiskey!"
My best advice.."Best to stay outta trees and offa windmills!"

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