Looks like I'm fairly well "zeroed in" on loads for the Collath rifle bbl. I'm headed to the PRK late this week to visit my Dad, and while there, we're going to hunt "wild boar". My Dad is recovering from a shoulder injury, and doesn't feel that he can reliably shoot a "heavy" recoiling rifle. The guide (www.boaring.com) tells me that shots are from 40 to 150 yds with most under 100. Given that info, my first choice for my Dad was the .22/.30-30 with a 40 grain bullet doing 4350 f/s, but the guide wasn't having any of that, so I chose the .257 with 85 grain Combined Technology Silver Tips. (Actually, my first choice was my .17 Rem - but I didn't even want to try defending that.) I'm quite certain that the .22 would be more "instantaneously" lethal than the .257, but I really wasn't going to argue too much. There's just no "winning" that kind of argument in these circumstances.
 
I'd like to be able to insert the images at the approriate place in the text, but it just ain't to be. Therefore, I'll number the images and refer to the number in the appropriate place in the text.
 
I went to the range on Thursday and took the Collath, the TCR-83 .257 AI, the Steyr M95 and the Ruger 10/22 with the SSS bbl. I'll discuss the Steyr and .22 in other posts.
 
For the Collath I took 230 HPs (23.5 grains of I4227), 250s (20.0 grains of H110), and 310s (19.0 grains of H110).
 
For the TCR I took 85 grain Combined Technology Silver Tips (45.5 grains of VV N-150), and 100 grain Speer HPs (47.0 grains of H54350).
 
I only lubed seven 310-grain Collath bullets using a "blue" lube from LBT drinksgin gave me. The differences were significant between the lubed and non-lubed.
First the muzzle velocity data.
 
For the Collath:
 
310 lubed – 1315 f/s, SD = 16.23 f/s, n=7
310 unlubed – 1378 f/s, SD = 32.10 f/s, n=15
250 unlubed - 1575, SD = 15.24 f/s, n=15
230 unlubed – 1450 f/s, SD = 42.10 f/s, n=15
 
Note that the lubed 310s are on average, going 63 f/s slower than the unlubed 310s, AND their variation among shots was HALF that of the unlubed. I have lubed all of the bullets for the boar hunt.
For the TCR:
85 grain ST – 3468 f/s, SD = 20.90 f/s
100 grain HP – 3245 f/s, SD = 30.94 f/s

I can keep 3 of the 85 grainers in 3/4s of an inch at 100 yd. The 100s go into about 1.25".
 
The Collath:
Lots of good news here. I am getting excellent groups – as small as 2"- at 50 yards for all the bullets. (See image #1. The two groups have POAs 4.5" below the group.) That is also translating well to 100 yards with groups basically doubling. (See image #2) Therefore, I feel pretty confident that if I can get a reasonable rest, I can pretty much "put it where it's supposed to go". The difference between the lubed and un-lubed is significant. (See image #1) The MV is lower by 62fps, but the lubed group is the smallest groups shot. I strongly suspect, by virtue of the reduced MV that the pressure is substantially reduced. I think 1300 f/s is fine for the 310-grain bullet. Since I can't be more precise than about 6"-ish at best at 150 yards, (See image number 3), I see no need for more velocity at the muzzle. The gun and me are simply no good past 150, and the 310 at 1300 is fine out as far as 150 up to and including moose. Hopefully I'll get a chance to prove that in Nov-Dec.
 
The TCR-83:
 
The TCR with the .257AI bbl was not particularly surprising, but it did perform well, with the three 85-grainers going into .75" at 100 yards, (See image #4 upper right.) and three 100-grainers going into 1.25" at 100 yards.(See image #2 lower right.) I think the 100-grainers could do better if I spent a little time on it. I was getting a little primer cratering, and will lighten the load a bit and see how it shoots then. You will notice that the 85-grain rifle/bullet/load combination out-performs "book" values for the .25-06. "Beating" the .25-06 is not now, nor ever was, a goal of mine. However it is interesting to see equivalent or better performance with less powder. The 100-grainer is as good as, or slightly worse than, the same weight in .25-06. As you know, this is really to be expected. The '06 case should do better with the heavier bullets.(Of course it is inappropriate to seriously compare "book" values and handloads.)
 
I have also attached some images of the groups "cleaned up" by my analysis software. (See the rest of the images.)
 
I forget who it was that was asking about pistol cartridges in rifles, but the Collath is shooting what is essentially a .44-40. Originally I believe designed as a BP
rifle cartridge - Jay can clarify if I'm mistaken - but considered by most to be 1) obsolete, and 2) a pistol cartridge. However for me, it is one of the most enjoyable/satisfying firearms I have ever shot, and I have a great deal of confidence in its ability to "do the job" on big critters under 150 yds. If the sights (and my eyes) were better I would feel no compunction about taking it out to 200 yds and expect sub 2 MOA abilities at that range. I can push the 310 to 1500 f/s, but considering the limitations imposed by the sights and my eyes, I see no need.
 
 
Paul

Here are the "sanitized" groups for the Collath at 50 yards. "0,0" is the Point of Aim. The ellipse represents where you could expect 95 of 100 bullets to hit based on the existing shots and the sample size.

Paul

Here are "sanitized" groups for 100 and 150 yds for the Collath.

Thoes 310gr should be just the ticket. And they are MOP (minute of pig) out to 100 yards which is all you need. I'd love to see a pic of you with a pig and some quail all taken with the same gun.

One of the "sanitized" targets (the 230 @ 50 yds) is wrong. I've got to get on another computer to fix it. When I get it fixed I'll post the correction.

Quote from: HunterbugI'd love to see a pic of you with a pig and some quail all taken with the same gun.

Me too.
 
WRT the 310 and MOPs, I'd like to recover a bullet. (Nothing like counting your chickens before they're hatched.) I doubt the 310 will stay in a pig even at 150. However, considering how well the 230 shoots, I'll probably be using it at anything under 100, in hopes of recovering a bullet. When I get the 230 @ 50yds image replaced, I'll post an image of a couple of 310s I recovered from a dirt bank. Twenty seven inches in when fired from 25yds away.
 
 
Paul

I corrected the scale on the 230 @ 50yds graph. Here are the recovered 310s and an image of the unfired 310, 250, and 230 with the "blue" LBT lube.

 
Paul

Looks like you're in business Paul.  Now for the 'proof of the pudding'.

I won't be able to post the images, (if there are any), until I return which will be on the 26th. Shortly thereafter, if the unit is still open, I'm going to head north for a cow moose. There's a registratio goat hunt opening in late October - weather gets real interesting for that hunt. My caribou area re-opens October 20th, and I am hoping to get out there for caribou.


I won't be chasing goat with the Collath, and probably not caribou either. Typical shots are just too long. If I get the M95 Steyr performing satisfactorily, it'll probably go for caribou. It's the old, non-milsurp 8mm for goat. In the end all of these Alaskan hunts could 'vaporize'.

Paul

Paul;
Looks great, the 310's look to be more than 90% intact, even the cg is still in place.
That should do a pig or moose very nicely, even a stearn raking shot.:]
Don

This may be a stupid question, Gitano, but what exactly are the barrels on the Collath chambered for? I know it's a drilling but I've forgotten since your last post on that subject.

It's a 16x16x10.75mm. Actually, I'm shooting .44-40 brass, and the bullets are sized to 0.427". I tried 0.424", 0.427" and 0.429". The .427 shot best. The .44-40 case is about 1/8th of an inch shorter than the chamber, but it works just fine. Among its idiosyncrasies is the fact that "normal" thickness brass won't let a .424" bullet chamber, yet a .424" bullet doesn't completely fill the bore. THe .44-40 brass, being pretty thin at the mouth works perfectly. The extra 1/8th of an inch is unnecessary because using modern powders, I am getting all the velocity out of the .44-40 case I need.

 
Paul

It looks like thoes bullets will retain alot of weight. I recomend only shooting a pig that has a good sized tree behind it. Then you may be able to dig the bullet out of the tree. You might even ask the pig if he would be so kind as to move so that you have a proper backstop for bullet recovery.

You guys aren't holding my feet to the fire. Images #2 and 4 were the same image in the first post, and did not show the 0.75" 100-yd group for the 85 grain ST in the .257. I have corrected that. The two holes to the right of the 3-shot group are scope correction shots. The lower one moving point-of-impact right, and the upper one moving POI up.
 
Paul
 
A post script to the post with the recovered bullets. Those were sized at 0.429", and were doing something a little in excess of 1500 f/s. My current loads are with bullets (the same 310s) sized to 0.427" and doing a little in excess of 1300 f/s.
 
Paul

Paul
 
Glad to see you back.  I have spoken with Don and I am still playing/fighting with the Collath I have.  Hope to figure out just what it is before long.  Please keep us posted on you adventures.  
 
Mike