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-   -   Winchester Universal Shotshells (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//showthread.php?t=18928)

sakorick 02-17-2016 06:01 PM

Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
Here is a typical hyped up product that is IMHO junk. Take a look at the fancy packaging. How about that USA shooting team logo. Wow anything used by the US Olympic team must really be good, right? Wrong, they use Winchester AA target loads or Remington Nitro 27 target shells just like 99.9% of every Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays shooter in the country. Now for the analysis. I cut the top off the shell and carefully weighed the shot......it was not 1 1/8 ounce, it was eggzactly 1.05 ounces. Then I removed the wad which is supposed to reduce recoil and increase velocity.....now that is total garbage.....it's a standard AA Winchester wad. Then I weighed the powder which had clumps in it and some stuck to the bottom of the hull. The mildest listed 2 3/4 dram load using TSX powder is 18 grains, the powder weighed in at 17.4 grains. It's starting to stink. I called Hodgdon and asked if they have a published load for the new universal hulls......nope and no planned for development. So we have a shell that is short on powder, short on lead and caused 2 SA shotguns and one pump to malfunction on our recent Pheasant hunt and cannot be safely reloaded as there is no data. One last thing, the box says heavy lead......HEAVY LEAD? They are not what they are hyped up to be.......beware of things that come in fancy packaging.....it's junk.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12.../sale/junk.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12.../sale/shot.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12.../sale/wads.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...ale/powder.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12.../sale/hull.jpg

gitano 02-17-2016 09:58 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
I can't believe an ammunition manufacturer would exaggerate claims of performance. You must be mistaken. ;)

Paul

farmboy 02-18-2016 08:49 AM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
Well I have read elsewhere on the web that load them the same as AA the fellow posted that alliant techs told him that. If you wanted to do that I would confirm that with alliant. Did the shot look round and all the same size? In the rcbs shot shell reloading manual they have a picture of an economy shell cut open and shot is all mis shaped . on the price of the reloaded shells they suggest that a person compares there reload price against double a or Remington sts loads. That is if we reload with premium components you have to compare against factory ammo with premium components in them.

sakorick 02-18-2016 09:53 AM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
The shot looked too good actually....I believe it is a alloy as it doesn't look like pure lead......it was perfectly uniform. Alliant? What does Alliant have to do with Winchester. Winchester is in cahoots with Hodgdon not alliant. I was trying to determine what might have caused the malfunctions......and I believe I did. They are not using AA components in those shells. They have steel bases not brass, a double plastic lower hull for the shot and is not a heavy field load......in fact it is an anemic target load that causes SA's to jam. The wad is also a giveaway.....it should be white not pale yellow. The Winchester yellow wad is for ounce and 1/4 loads.

gitano 02-18-2016 12:03 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
I gotta say that I believe that about 90% of the stuff claimed about the "profound" effects of using different wads is flat out VOODOO. Certainly there is difference in shot performance as a function of different wads, but when two wads look exactly alike in construction, I have a REALLY difficult time believing that shotguns are so SENSITIVE that it is actually the make-up of the plastic that accounts for HUGE differences in performance. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Explosions - even 'controlled' ones - are highly variable. SAMPLE SIZES MATTER.

To me, the "big" deal(s) here are 1) the misrepresentations of the marketing, and 2) the actual performance (or lack thereof).

When someone STARTS OFF lying to me - the misrepresented information on the box - everything else is suspect and in fact becomes not worth considering in my opinion. When you lie to me once, how do I know when you are telling me the truth thereafter?

When the things fail to cycle semi-auto actions, that's pretty much the end of the story. HOWEVER, semi-auto firearms are VERY finicky. ALL OF THEM. They are TUNED to specific operational parameters. Get outside those perameters - especially PRESSURE - and they fail to function.

The only way I can see how a shotgun cartridge could jam a pump action is if the fired hull was too long and caught the front edge of the ejection port. Not being a pump shotgun expert, I assume there are other potential causes of FTE - maybe rim thickness or something like that - but that's a 'configuration' issue. Again, a big deal for semi-auto and pump users, but not so much for single shot and side-by-side users.

Does the box have a velocity claim? Given the "light" load, (1.05oz actual vs. 1.125 claimed), I would be interested in what the actual velocity was relative to the claimed velocity. As for the "clumps" of powder, I have compressed loads that had clumps when disassembled. However, given that this appears to be a very light charge, "compression" is not likely an issue. Can you chrono 5 or so of them? It would be best if Winchester actually makes a velocity claim, but even if they don't, a high level of variability would indicate 1) poor quality control, and 2) a high probability of failure to function in semi-autos.

I note that the box doesn't say "USA OLYMPIC Shooting Team". Maybe they legally "get away" with this labeling claim by having a "team" of shooters called the "USA Shooting Team". IMPLYING the US Olympic team, but not actually violating the letter of the law. Just a thought.

You've convinced me not to buy these shotgun shells. However, since I only shoot 16s and 28s, and I doubt seriously they make them for 16s, and probably not for 28s, I probably wouldn't be buying them anyway.

Paul

gitano 02-18-2016 12:12 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
I went looking. Here's what I found. First the OFFICIAL - TRADEMARKED - Olympic Brands:
http://www.teamusa.org/brand-usage-guidelines

Second, look at this:
http://www.usashooting.org/

This says "Olympic" ALL OVER IT, but NOWHERE does it use ANY of the trademarked logos of the OFFICIAL Olympic team. It is so blatant that I am still wondering if there is some sort of official connection, but this site does not use ANY of the official Olympic logos. That's very suspicious to me.

Here's the 'bottom line' from the "USA Shooting" site:
About USA Shooting

USA Shooting, a 501c3 non-profit corporation, was chartered by the United States Olympic Committee as the National Governing Body for the sport of shooting in April 1995. The organization implements and manages development programs and sanctions events at the local, state, regional, and national levels.

Paul

sakorick 02-18-2016 01:43 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
1 Attachment(s)
Yep, the 2d one clearly shows their logo. I have been a supporter and donate regularly to the team. Clearly marked so on the box.

farmboy 02-18-2016 02:45 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sakorick (Post 143283)
The shot looked too good actually....I believe it is a alloy as it doesn't look like pure lead......it was perfectly uniform. Alliant? What does Alliant have to do with Winchester. Winchester is in cahoots with Hodgdon not alliant. I was trying to determine what might have caused the malfunctions......and I believe I did. They are not using AA components in those shells. They have steel bases not brass, a double plastic lower hull for the shot and is not a heavy field load......in fact it is an anemic target load that causes SA's to jam. The wad is also a giveaway.....it should be white not pale yellow. The Winchester yellow wad is for ounce and 1/4 loads.

On this other forum this fellow said that the techs at alliant said to use the same data as Winchester AA hulls if you were going to reload the universal hulls. I would check with someone not just go by someone's posts. If allaimt was recommending that I would check with them if they have any data available.

sakorick 02-18-2016 09:58 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by farmboy (Post 143289)
On this other forum this fellow said that the techs at alliant said to use the same data as Winchester AA hulls if you were going to reload the universal hulls. I would check with someone not just go by someone's posts. If allaimt was recommending that I would check with them if they have any data available.

Farmboy, I am not going to check with alliant on winchester reloads and wished I had never posted these findings. If you want to reload these hulls using winchester data for the AA hulls, then be my guest. I strongly recommend you do not as it's apples and oranges. If you can show me reload numbers from a Winchester or Hodgdon source for this universal hull, I will be all ears.

farmboy 02-18-2016 10:33 PM

Re: Winchester Universal Shotshells
 
Sorry did not mean to cause any stress. I did find your finding interesting. I never even thought about how much shot would be in factory loads.


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