The Hunter's Life

The Hunter's Life (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//index.php)
-   FIREARMS & OPTICS (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//showthread.php?t=5589)

Squirrel 03-21-2006 12:37 AM

7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I need some help my fellow hunters and shooters. I am in the market for a bolt action deer rifle and I was told to go with the .30-06 calibur because it shot flat, the ammo was cheap and it has good knock down power out to 300 yards, which I need. I did some research and found that the 7mm-08 has the same ballistics, there about, and it has less recoil, which really impressed me. I would like to know which would you all recommend and please share some experiences.

Lastley, I need a good gun manufacturer. I see that Winchester has a pretty good price on there rifles and so does Remington. Savage seems to have the better deal because their's come with a scope mounted and sling. I picked up a Savage in the store one day and the bolt action sound like ****. When I openned the chamber it went Clackeedee Clack and the same when closing, Clackeedee clack. The other models were very smooth with no sound what so ever, but......you can't beat Savages package deal. Which of the three if any would you guys choose to shoot Wally The Wall Hanger with????

Thanks,

Squirrel

Hunterbug 03-21-2006 02:20 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
WOW, that's a boatload of questions. I am going to answer your question as asked and not start recomending 27 other calibers that you didn't ask about. I love the 30-06. It's killed everything on the planet and has done so for 100 years. The 7X57 which is the ballistic twin of the 7mm-08 has done so as well for 110 years. But if it were me I would most likely buy the 30-06. I am assuming that you do not handload and for the 30-06 you can find ammo anywhere. You also have many options as to bullet weights and even reduced recoil loads. Also ammo is not very expensive.

As to which rifle Winchester is no longer making the model 70. I have yet to find a Remington 700 that I want to own. I have owned one and shot a couple and I do not like them. They don't fit me well and seem to have more recoil for a given round than other rifles. Also the new Remingtons from what I have read have horrible nonadjustible triggers. Savage has a reputation for outstanding accuracy right out of the box and this I can personally attest to. I shot a Savage 12 BVSS 22-250 at the range that a guy had just gotten and I put 5 rounds that you could cover with a nickle. Good luck with your decision and let us know.

Brithunter 03-21-2006 05:31 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Hi Squirrel,

Well Hunterbug has given good advice. From what you have said you do not like the Savage rifle. Obviously you were not impressed by the feel of the action on the rifle you tried however before you make any final decisions may I suggest that you try and handle a few of each of your choice of makes and models and then choose which ever feels the best to you and the one that fits you the best. hen raised smartly to the shooting position the rifle which fits you should come up so that you head and eye align with the sighting system.

You should not need to move your head at all to find the sights. Now if recoil is a concern then perhaps you should follow your gut and go with the 7-08. Both cartridges will perform well on game given that the corect type of bullet is selected. personally out of your choices I would plump for the old 06. Never even shot a 7-08 but as I have the 7x57mm I cannot see any reason to have a 7-08 :p .

I should say thta I am surprised aout the Savage being so clunky though as the only one I have really examined which was a plain wood stocked model 110 was quite smooth and for the price was a real bargin. If I did not already have the .308 it was chambered in then I would have seriously considered buying it. Oh it was a use rifle and the price was about 120 ($216) and that included steel Hilver bases already fitted.

Daryl (deceased) 03-21-2006 06:50 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Both of these cartridges will take deer reliably out to 300 yards. The 30-06 will likely do it with a bit more authority, but they'll both work. If recoil is a concern, I'd likely go with the 7mm-08.

As far as your choices for rifles, it sure seems that the quality of new rifles has been deteriorating over the last several years. Like you, I find the Savages to be a bit clunky feeling. That said, they're said to be extremely accurate, and are well liked by those who shoot them.

I haven't owned a Remington rifle in many years, but those I've owned/shot seemed well made and were fairly accurate. With Winchester closing down their American plant, it's unlikely to find one of those, although I really like the model 70 action and trigger.

I've been doing a lot of hunting in the last several years with a Browning A-bolt, and though it's not pretty with the synthetic stock and matte finish, it's always served me well. I've always been able to get sub-MOA from it, but recently started messing with loads...just for fun. I found one load (similar to the one I've been using, but with a shallower seating depth) that gives me nice little clover leafs at 100 yards with 145 grain Speer Grand Slam bullets (7mm Rem mag). I'll be using this load in the future!

As far as a relatively inexpensive rifle, I'd take a look at the CZ line. It'd cost a small fortune to come up with a similar quality rifle by an American manufacturer, and the accuracy of mine (.17 Rem) is outstanding. It took me a while to get used to the exposed/removable magazine, but I really like these rifles.

In the end, it's really up to you and what you like, but those are my thoughts for your consideration.

Take care,
Daryl

RatherBHuntin 03-21-2006 08:30 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
My choice would be, in this order
Savage in a wood stock, without the package deal (if you can spare the extra $50, plus the $50 you'll save by not getting the package, buy your own scope)
Remington 700 in a synthetic ( I have one in a youth model in .308, should be real similiar to a 7-08, I love it. Added a recoil pad which pushed the length of pull back a half inch)
Savage in a synthetic (ugly, but will shoot amazingly)
Remington in wood (just the most expensive option)

I have handled a few CZs, though never shot one, and was impressed. Would like to shoot one sometime.

M1Garand 03-21-2006 06:41 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
3 Attachment(s)
Good advice from all, I think either one would be a fine deer rifle. Do a few web searches and read up on both and make a decision. I know guys with both calibers and they are all very happy with them. I think my top choices that are reasonably priced since Winchester is no longer making the M70 are (in no particular order):

1. CZ 550 American
2. Tikka T3 Hunter
3. Browning A-bolt

sakorick 03-21-2006 08:10 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Hello Squirrel. My vote goes with the '06. I also like the .243, .257, 6.5x55, 6mm-'06, 25-'06, 6mm-284, 6.5-284, 6.5x'06, 270, 280 rem, 7mm Mauser, 7mmSTW, 7MM Rem Mag, 308, 8mm Mauser, 338-'06 and the 35 Whelen. The 7mm-08 seems to be a fad at present and has no advantages over any other 7mm cartridges IMHO. I also like the Ackley versions of all the above. I am also a sick puppy who loves rifles.

I would rate the 7mm-08 as Ok but it would not be at the top of my "A" list. As Brithunter posted, the 7mm-08 is just a 7mm Mauser wannabe and really doesn't perform as well. The good old '06 100 years and going strong and is what all the others are measured by.... and you can get good ammo anywhere....and I do mean anywhere. If you are trending towards the 7mm caliber, the 7Mag is king of the hill. Now that you are totally confused, I'll cede the floor to more rational posters. By the way, the '06 is good to 400 yards and beyond. Good luck and regards, Rick. :D

RatherBHuntin 03-21-2006 09:31 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sakorick
The 7mm-08 seems to be a fad at present and has no advantages over any other 7mm cartridges IMHO.

I would rate the 7mm-08 as Ok but it would not be at the top of my "A" list. As Brithunter posted, the 7mm-08 is just a 7mm Mauser wannabe and really doesn't perform as well. Good luck and regards, Rick. http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums...es/biggrin.gif

Couple of points based on facts.
*Much easier to buy a new rifle in 7-08 compared to 7 Mauser
*Yes, used rifles can be had in 7 Mauser, as they can in 7-08
*Factory Loads are in favor of 7-08, by 100-200 fps http://www.remington.com/products/am...on/ballistics/
*more than a fad, as Remington, Tikka, Sako, and Browning are selling their new rifles chambered in 7mm-08 rather than 7x57 Mauser
*more factory loads are available in 7-08 than 7x57, though exponentially more are available in 30-06

Couple of opinions
*I wouldn't pass up on a 7x57 if I found one, new or used
*I wouldn't pass up a 7-08 if I found one, new or used
*I would take the 7-08 over the 7x57, all else being equal
*I would go with the 30-06 if I were going to use it on anything bigger than mule deer or farther away than 300 yards
*Aint nothing wrong with not liking a Chevy because it's a Chevy, but don't try to convince others to hate them for no other reason than you do

Gmoney 03-22-2006 01:00 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I find it hard to go against a cartridge like a 7-08....to each their own but here is my thinking other than the fact I prefer the 7-08 to some emotional level since it it the same case as my beloved .260 :)...

Rick, if it is a "fad", I'd say ammo is readily available, brass is easy to come by and/or formed, and the recoil is light, you'd have to say the 7-08 has the "advantage" over the Mauser based on your previous statement about performance being equal, or there-aboutsl....

You may have an "emotional" bond to the Mauser and not the 7-08 but if they are equal in performance, or close enough, you have to say the 7-08 has the advantage b/c of the reasons listed above.

That said, if I go higher than the .260 I'm going much higher than a 7-08......

Either an -06 of a Win-mag....

To each their own, if I would not have bought a .260 then a 7-08 would probably been at the top of my wish-list.....

Brithunter 03-22-2006 05:10 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Hmmm well I ahve not looked at new rifles for some time as most of the old regulars know I like the old classic rifles :D . I as I said do not have nor have I had any personel experience of the 7-08 as I have several 7x57 rifles likewise as I have a couple of rifles chambered for the 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge I have no interest in the .260 either. Being in the UK we do get a lot of European rifles and it seems that they all offer the 7mm Mauser as a chambering and in fact a friend has just recently brought a Blaser 93 Professional in 7x57 :cool: in fact I let him have a couple of boxes of bullets to try reloading with for it the other week some 139 Flat Point Hornady's and some 175 grn Remington's. have no heard how he got on yet though.

Rifle choice is also very personal, my take on it is that you pick the one which fits and feels the best to you, that is unless you have a real dislike to a particular make :( , and I find it seems to work as a rifle you are confident in and is comfortable seems to shoot better for you :p .

gitano 03-22-2006 12:00 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
You should consider the .308 Win. It hits "harder" than the 7mm-08 or the 7x57, and recoils less than the '06. Ammo is almost as ubiquitous as for the '06.

As far as manufacturers go... find a rifle you like the 'feel' of and buy it. Any over-the-counter rifle might shoot spectacularly... or not. I've bought over-the-counter rifles that shot very well, and I've bought ones that needed considerable work to get to acceptable precision. If you want one that you know for certain will shoot small groups, you're going to have to go, at least to some degree, "custom", or... 'roll the dice' at the counter.

Paul

sakorick 03-22-2006 09:22 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Gosh, I never would have posted on this thread if I thought I was going to get "piled on" this bad. So I will defend myself to wit: All I said was IMHO the 7mm-08 was my least favorite 7mm caliber and I'm sticking to that. I do not use any factory ammunition except in my .22LR. I consider the 7MM-08 a fad. When it has been around for 120 years it will progress to my classic status and that's what I consider the 7mm Mauser to be. If you think the 7mm-08 kicks less than the 7mm Mauser loaded for bear, you are sadly mistaken....there is no perceptible difference. The 7mm Mauser shoots 100'/sec faster than the 7mm-08 with every reload I've tried.....and I've tried many many combos. Finally, I didn't bash the 7mm-08....I mearly stated it is not a caliber on my "A" list. I never said it was terrible and in fact that is exactly the opposite. It is a very fine cartridge....but IMHO there are other 7mm cartridges that are far superior.

To compare the 7mm-08 with a 30'06/.308 is not a fair comparison. Both the .308 and '06 have far superior knock down power at all ranges.

To all you 7mm-08 owners, you have a very very fine deer rifle.....just don't try to compare it with calibers with numbers that can't come close.

Finally, the 7mm-08 is an American thing. The 7mm Mauser is a German/European thing. The big boys invented something that was already there. Pump and dump tactics don't work on this old soldier. Regards, Rick.

Squirrel 03-22-2006 09:30 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Thank you gentlemen so much for your inputs. All have been very beneficial and knowledged filled. I'm going to the Bass Pro Shop on Saturday to pick up some ammo for my .30-30 and I will shoulder a couple of brands then. I will let you all know the calibur I choose when I make my brand selection.


Squirrel:cool:

Gmoney 03-23-2006 01:28 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Good post Rick.....

Brithunter 03-23-2006 04:53 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Squirrel,

An excellent idea and one I heartly concur with in all possible ways.

heck I am not keen on the 6mm's or .243 yet I now have a 6mm remington just because a rifle that I rather liked to look of and felt good was just priced too cheap to pass up. Yep I am really blighted by this rifle sickness!

kombi1976 03-23-2006 06:25 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sakorick
The big boys invented something that was already there.

Yep, you're right, Rick.
7mm-08 was a long established highly popular metallic silhouette cartridge long before Remington legitimised it.
But I don't think that's what you meant......... ;)
I'm actually a fan of the 7x57......but then I reload.
Squirrel, if you intend to hunt elk or moose then buy a 30-06.
If you like a low recoiling round for deer that's inherently accurate & bigger hitting in the field than on paper then you'd go a long way before finding something better than the 7mm-08.
7mm is an excellent calibre, there's plenty of good premium ammo and your shoulder will love you.
But then you could buy the 7mm-08 and buy a 30-06 or 300 WSM later...... :D
Woo-ha-ha-ha!! WOO-HA-HA!! WOO-HA-HA!!! (evil laugh) :eek: :p

bigboar 03-23-2006 05:50 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Squirrel, I do not care for either of the two cartriges that you question. but if I had to pick between one to go deer hunting with, I would pick the 06 most definitly. I would not agree with the statement that it is a flat shooting round. The 08 is flatter. But the 06 is alot more caliber in every other way. If I were going to target shoot comp. I would go with the 08 for recoil reasons. As for rifles I totaly agree with a-bolt. You can't go wrong there. Accuracy, good bolt action, great trigger, good fill, it's all there. As far as price goes you start with the base a-bolt hunter ot stalker at around $550 dollars.I know nothing of tikka or CZ but I will say that Sakorick has really got me wanting one CZ varmit rifle in 22-250. As for the budget remington and savage rifles that you spoke of, I would steer clear of both. You can get a Weatherby Vangaurd in 06 at wall-mart for $385. It is a great rifle for the money.

periscope_depth 03-30-2006 10:59 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
If you are talking a DEER rifle....I have to say that I love cartridges made off of the .308 case.

The .308 bullet is at coefficent best at 180 grn plus.

You simply don't need 180 bullet in a .308 caliber to kill a deer. The reality is that the 150 grn bullet in .308 is (IMHO) best for deer out of any .308 caliber rifle.

The problem is that at longer ranges...that 150 grn bullet will lose energy faster than a 140 grn bullet out of a 7mm round or a even a 129 grn bullet out of a .260 Rem.

In other words...you will get the KICK from the 30-06 but 300 yards down range, the 7mm-08 or the .260 will have more energy with a bullet totally suited for deer sized game.

You never asked about other rounds but I can think of none other better than the .260 Rem (which is the .308 case necked down to .264 caliber). But as I stated, the 7mm-08 is the better choice if you are only deciding between the 30-06 and the 7mm-08.

In the end...both will kill deer as far as you can shoot accurately as deer are not hard to kill. Shooting a round that doesn't kick as much is actually much more fun and knowing that it is delivering as much energy down range as a more powerful round makes you feel like you are cheating.

Observe the tables:

The 150 grn .308 spire pt hits with 3000 ft/e at the muzzle.

This translates into RECOIL. Not so much that you can't shoot it ...but that if shoot it often, its going to hurt. You'll have to practice with the '06 and your practice is going to hurt after 20 rounds.

At 100 yards...the '06 has a very lethal 2450 fp/e. More than enough energy to take down a deer provided you can shoot it straight.

At 200 yards 2000 ft/e very lethal

300 yards the 1616 foot lbs energy....the max range you should be shooting at a big game animal unless you have lots of training and have a very superior rifle.

The 260 Rem strikes with an energy of 2246 fp/e at the muzzle. Compare that with the 3000 fp/e of the 30-06. As we all know...2246 fp-e is totally over kill on deer but we know that the .260 will kick nearly half as less.

Out to 100 yards the .260 is carrying 1923 fp/e same as the '06 at 200 yards.

At 200..the .260 has 1644 fp/e same as the '06 at 200...but if you'll notice, the ballistic coefficient of the .260 is retaining energy and velocity better than the 30-06. You'll note that the 129 grn .264 caliber 260 is longer (and denser) than the 30-06 and so it will penetrate deeper at any given velocity. At 200 yards the 260 is going 2,400 fps and the .308 is going the same speed. The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of its lower weight and lessor energy.

At 300 yards the .260 is going 2,211fps and is actually going faster than than 30-06. Energy is a robust 1,400 fps. As reference, this is more energy than a 44 magnum at the muzzle but with a bullet that is longer and denser than 44 magnum.

The .260 shoots as flat or flatter than the 30-06. It hits nearly as hard as the 30-06 at 300 yards but kicks nearly half as much.

At truly long ranges...the ability to control kick and the effect of recoil on accurate shooting is critical at making accurate long range shots.




Gmoney 03-31-2006 12:19 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by periscope_depth
At 200..the .260 has 1644 fp/e same as the '06 at 200...but if you'll notice, the ballistic coefficient of the .260 is retaining energy and velocity better than the 30-06. You'll note that the 129 grn .264 caliber 260 is longer (and denser) than the 30-06 and so it will penetrate deeper at any given velocity. At 200 yards the 260 is going 2,400 fps and the .308 is going the same speed. The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of its lower weight and lessor energy.

Hmmmm....I'm trying to follow you here PD, you switch midstream from the .308 to the '06 but my comments mainly refer to the above quote......do not know where you got those energy or velocity numbers but a pretty universal ballistic chart is the one at Remington.com......you mention the 129 in the .260 and the 150 in the '06, so here we go....

At 400 yds. the '06 still had 100 more ft./lbs. of energy than the .260 and at 500 the .260 finally surpasses it....

You say the '06 and .260 have the same energy at 200 yds...don't know where you are getting this but with these two bullets the '06 still has the .260 by almost 250 ft./lbs.....keep in mind that we are using the "best" bullet weight in the .260 and one of the "worst" in the '06....I bet if you reran these numbers with a 180 in the '06 these numbers will be farther apart.....

The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of lower weight and lesser energy?

Hmmmmm.....

Sure the .260 will have much less felt recoil than the '06 but some of your figures are misleading.......http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums...ilies/cool.gif

sakorick 03-31-2006 09:13 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
PD. Sorry sir, your numbers are flat out wrong and misleading. You want the truth? The 30'06 shoots flatter and has way more energy down range than the 260 Remington. Lets compare apples to apples. I'll use my reloads with my chronograph numbers and the highest BC bullet for both calibers...the Swift Scirocco bullet. The .264 130gr bullet has a BC of .571 while the .308 has a BC of 470 with the 165gr bullet. MV of the 260 is 2715'/sec fired on my range using a 700 Rem BDL.....I believe with a 22 inch barrel. The '06 is a Sako 23 1/2 inch barrel with a MV of 2895. v=velocity, e= energy, t= trajectory 250 yd zero

260 range 0 MV 2715 e 2128 t -2
100 yds v 2560 e 1984 t +3.2
200 yds v 2410 e 1677 t +2.5
300 yds v 2267 e 1483 t -4.1
400 yds v 2127 e 1306 t -17.5

'06 range 0 MV2885 e 3049 t-2
100 yds v 2690 e 2650 t +2.8
200 yds v 2503 e 2295 t +2.3
300 yds v 2325 e 1980 t -3.8
400 yds v 2154 e 1700 t -16.3

Summary....not even close. There just aren't any other cartridges out there short of a belted magnum or wildcat that can touch those numbers. The 280 Remington comes close....but no cigar. The 270 is a wee bit flatter but just doesn't have the energy. The 308 is close....shoot, they are all close but the numbers speak for themselves. This is why the '06 is king, has been king and will be king.

As for the recoil....all I can say is I started shooting a 30'06 when I was 13 years old.....never hurt my shoulder one time in 43 years.

Is the 260 Remington a fine deer rifle? Yes, of course. But don't think for a minute that a little bullet generating 500 foot pounds less energy is going to have more penetration/knock down power than a big bullet generating 500ft pounds more. Look at the 300 yard numbers. Physics just doesn't work that way. And now I'm off to reload some 6.5-284 winchester rounds for the first testing! Regards, Rick.

periscope_depth 04-01-2006 12:08 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I was using a ballistics calculator using the worst bc 150grn 30-06 vs the worst .260 129 grn bullet.

No question....the 30.06 is more powerful than the .260 but the numbers for the .308 150 grn spire point vs the .264 129 grn spire point is pretty accurate.

I have owned both the .30-06 and the .260 Rem. Let me say that the -06 kicks noticably more than the .260 but if you don't care about recoil the 30-06 is better.

Seriously folks.

Dead is dead no matter what.

The higher section density of the .264 means that it WILL penetrate deeper (everything else being equal). The killing power of the .264 caliber bullet is nearly legendary but that's for another post.

Simply put: A .260 will always be more efficient unless the hunter with the .308 wants to use a 190 grn match bullet.

Big Red Trike 04-01-2006 12:37 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Hey guys its my turn for a sec...LOL. All the calibres mentioned will adequately kill a deer be it Whitetail or Mule.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY...lots of people are recoil sensitive...thus sims or pachmyr recoil pads get used. If you are recoil sensitive use a pad.

Distance is another thing...we don't need to shoot 400 yds because we use our hunting skills and try to get closer...just because the rifle and calibre will kill at 400 yds doesn't mean we all have the skill to do it humanely...I have hunted with .243, 6.5 x 55 Swede (very good cartridge), .308 win, 30-06 Spr and finally my baby a Ruger MKII in 7mm REM MAG.

Pick a gun that feels right, swings nicely, fits your body, because it becomes an extension of you...and remember SHOT PLACEMENT IS ULITMATELY MORE IMPORTANT THAN CALIBRE...oh .308, .270 and .30-06 are the most readily available calibres to purchase. Darn even in the middle of nowhere (hanging a tree) you can buy ammo for those calibres if needed.

my .02

BRT

kombi1976 04-01-2006 08:12 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red Trike
...and remember SHOT PLACEMENT IS ULITMATELY MORE IMPORTANT THAN CALIBRE...

Unless......choice of calibre makes you unable to correctly place you shot.
I'm not going to argue penetration or anything else here but the strength of the 260 Rem, 7mm-08 and their real ancestors the 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser cartridges is that their low recoil allow the shooter to place the shot well more easily than a bigger cal/cartridge that has more energy.
Even those who don't suffer from recoil when using the 270, 308 and 30-06 can benefit from using lower recoil cartridges as it allows them to be more precise.
The efficiency is recoil vs capability and all four of those cartridges are known for their real world performance that belies the numbers on paper.
But yeah, the 270, 308 and 30-06 are all effective middle weights and ammo is disgustingly easy to find.

glen1 02-06-2009 11:19 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kombi1976 (Post 42481)
Unless......choice of calibre makes you unable to correctly place you shot.
I'm not going to argue penetration or anything else here but the strength of the 260 Rem, 7mm-08 and their real ancestors the 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser cartridges is that their low recoil allow the shooter to place the shot well more easily than a bigger cal/cartridge that has more energy.
Even those who don't suffer from recoil when using the 270, 308 and 30-06 can benefit from using lower recoil cartridges as it allows them to be more precise.
The efficiency is recoil vs capability and all four of those cartridges are known for their real world performance that belies the numbers on paper.
But yeah, the 270, 308 and 30-06 are all effective middle weights and ammo is disgustingly easy to find.

all in all i hunt with pepole who use 308,30-06,7m-08, and i shoot more deer than them all year round with my little old 243cal ,red deer ,and elk one shot kills out to 300yrds ,but how far do you want to shoot them at my m8s have more range than me with there 30-06 but they dont get many deer, i allways get 15 to 20 more a year then them now i got a 7x57 and i will still shoot more,

gitano 02-07-2009 12:14 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Well now glen1, I wooda just let your post go by unchallenged, 'cause for the most part, this issue is a tempest in a teapot. But then you went and invoked the "brown bear". :eek As most here know, I have an affinity for hunting them, and when I read comments like yours, I am reminded of my "speed uber alles" days and how wrong I too was about them and "energy".

I could go on and on, (something else the folks that have been here for a while understand ;) ), but I'll stick to the very specific point you raised, and offer a real-world example. The first Alaskan coastal brown bear I ever shot, I was using a 7mm Remington Mag with handloaded 175-grain Nosler Partitions. Skipping over the good stuff,
the first shot went in under the collar-bone crossed through the chest and out through a rear rib. The bear didn't even flinch. However, that wasn't your scenario. Yours is a "brain shot at a hundred yards".

So after the first shot, the bear whirled around and started running away. I fired again, hitting the bear in the zygomatic arch (cheekbone). He rolled, and came up running. There's more to the story, and a couple more shots, but I'll cut the the part where we dug the bullet out.

That 175-grain Partition, doing about 2900 f/s at the muzzle, didn't even break the zygomatic arch. I found it about 3" past it's entry point, peeled all the way back to the partition.

Now an 80-grain .243 FMJ bullet doing 3400 f/s at the muzzle, (I can't get QuickLoad to get that bullet going that fast at the muzzle from a .243 Win case, but let's not argue that point), will be doing about 3016 f/s at 100 yds. At that impact velocity, that bullet will have about 1600 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.

The 175 Partition out of the 7mm RM case is doing about 2641 at 150yds (about the range at which I shot that bear in the head), and have 2710 ft-lbs of KE. If the Partition didn't break that bear's skull with over a 1000 ft-lbs more energy, I don't have quite the faith you do in that little 'hot-rod'. Maybe if you put it up his nose, or in his eye, or ...

I went out and bought a .338 WM.

If you ever get a chance to go brown bear hunting with your .243, lemme know. I wanna go along. :)

Paul

recoil junky 02-07-2009 01:47 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
You go ahead and go along gitano, I'll stay in the bear proof cage wih my 45-70.

:help:

RJ

glen1 02-07-2009 02:57 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gitano (Post 89730)
Well now glen1, I wooda just let your post go by unchallenged, 'cause for the most part, this issue is a tempest in a teapot. But then you went and invoked the "brown bear". :eek As most here know, I have an affinity for hunting them, and when I read comments like yours, I am reminded of my "speed uber alles" days and how wrong I too was about them and "energy".

I could go on and on, (something else the folks that have been here for a while understand ;) ), but I'll stick to the very specific point you raised, and offer a real-world example. The first Alaskan coastal brown bear I ever shot, I was using a 7mm Remington Mag with handloaded 175-grain Nosler Partitions. Skipping over the good stuff,
the first shot went in under the collar-bone crossed through the chest and out through a rear rib. The bear didn't even flinch. However, that wasn't your scenario. Yours is a "brain shot at a hundred yards".

So after the first shot, the bear whirled around and started running away. I fired again, hitting the bear in the zygomatic arch (cheekbone). He rolled, and came up running. There's more to the story, and a couple more shots, but I'll cut the the part where we dug the bullet out.

That 175-grain Partition, doing about 2900 f/s at the muzzle, didn't even break the zygomatic arch. I found it about 3" past it's entry point, peeled all the way back to the partition.

Now an 80-grain .243 FMJ bullet doing 3400 f/s at the muzzle, (I can't get QuickLoad to get that bullet going that fast at the muzzle from a .243 Win case, but let's not argue that point), will be doing about 3016 f/s at 100 yds. At that impact velocity, that bullet will have about 1600 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.

The 175 Partition out of the 7mm RM case is doing about 2641 at 150yds (about the range at which I shot that bear in the head), and have 2710 ft-lbs of KE. If the Partition didn't break that bear's skull with over a 1000 ft-lbs more energy, I don't have quite the faith you do in that little 'hot-rod'. Maybe if you put it up his nose, or in his eye, or ...

I went out and bought a .338 WM.

If you ever get a chance to go brown bear hunting with your .243, lemme know. I wanna go along. :)

Paul

yeh you mite be right m8 , i no they a big beast ,but i still think it could be done ,
IMR4350 45.0g 3431.fps 1724 ft-lbs of kinetic energy with a barnes banded solid would work ,a partition will mushroom dumping 1/2 its energy on the out side ,you shood try the E tip , a fmj solid will punch a hole. all i was geting at was no matter what gun you have with the right shot placement you can pull just about any thing off ,i can shoot a 20cent coin at 100yards with my 243 so maybe i could shoot it in the eye ,id give it a go any way

kombi1976 02-07-2009 03:12 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
It's reassuring to think you can shoot that well, Glen.
Paul's bear started to run away from him.
What about if you missed the eye, cut his face and the bear at 100yds thought the odds were in his favour and ran TOWARDS you.......
Can you shoot him in the eye while he runs at you at about 35mph?
They look slow but if they're annoyed they can REALLY move.
At that point a 338 Win Mag or 45-70 look really good.
Even a 9.3x62 looks good.

glen1 02-07-2009 05:04 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kombi1976 (Post 89733)
It's reassuring to think you can shoot that well, Glen.
Paul's bear started to run away from him.
What about if you missed the eye, cut his face and the bear at 100yds thought the odds were in his favour and ran TOWARDS you.......
Can you shoot him in the eye while he runs at you at about 35mph?
They look slow but if they're annoyed they can REALLY move.
At that point a 338 Win Mag or 45-70 look really good.
Even a 9.3x62 looks good.

yes you are right all im saying is it could be done ,but i all so no that you could be killed just as ez to, but if it was standing side on you may be able to pull it off or if you were in a tree stand and could get a good shot off ,7x57 with a 195gr would be better ,but if all i had was my browning bar 243 id give it a go ,not say that a 243 is a good brown bear round but it could get the job done if thats all you had to work with ,pepole take them with a bow ,i feel a lot of pepole think they have to use a big gun to make up for poor shot placement ,i used the 243 cos pepole under rate it,as a deer gun and think you need a 308 or 30-06 but more deer have been shot with 243 and 303 in new zealand then any other gun ,im not saying that 243 is a bear round but could be done all the ones ive seen shot on video look ez to get a shot at not that video is real hunting and i am not dising the brown bear as i no they are not sum thing to fc.@.k around with or they will kill you,P.S any of you rich americans want to fly me over there i be more than happy to try and proof it ,if it all gos wrong pepole will all ways no the tail of the dumb kiwi who tryed to kill a brown bear with a 243 ,but if im right il be like the kiwi with the worlds fastest indian whos speed record in the usa to this day has never been beaten

Daryl (deceased) 02-07-2009 07:47 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

not say that a 243 is a good brown bear round but it could get the job done if thats all you had to work with ,pepole take them with a bow ,
Which only goes to show that you don't understand how an arrow kills, either. Comparing the lethal affects of a rifle cartridge to a bow isn't a good comparison at all.

Elephants have been taken with a bow, too. Want to try that one with a .243?

I don't underestimate the .243. I've owned and have used various .243's, and have never been without one in the gun collection since 1976. I even shot out the barrel on one of those rifles after several thousand rounds were put through it.

But, the big bears are no joke, and anyone who'd want to face a charging, 1000+ lb (perhaps 1500 lbs?) critter with teeth and claws, that's intent on killing you, is a brave soul. Anyone willing to try that with a .243, IMO, may have a death wish about to come true. Those critters have zero respect for the life of another.

You say it can be done? I agree, but I wouldn't rest my life on being that lucky.

The .243 is a nice little cartridge, and I've enjoyed shooting it for many years. It's not a good large critter gun though. In the hands of a well disciplined, experienced hunter it CAN take elk, even if it's pretty light for that. I've an uncle who's shot a few elk with it, and it's done well for him. I also know that the same uncle once shot 3 out of four legs out from under a small bull elk once with a 7mm rem mag after the first shot (due to bad angle) glanced off of a shoulder blade. It was laying down on the first shot, and running through some jack-pines after that, and was a little harder to hit.

Which brings us back to real life; things don't always work out as planned when hunting. People make mistakes, and shots can go astray of where the shooter intended. In a perfect world, we could all hunt with a .22 LR for everything (because, after all, I've seen 1500 lb critters dropped in their tracks from a single .22 LR shot between the eyes).

You're right about one thing though; according to my loading book, I can push a 70 grain bullet at about 3600 fps using a compressed load of IMR4350. It's a fairly accurate load from my rifle, too. With that in mind, an 80 grain bullet at 3400 fps doesn't sound unreasonable. I usually hunt with a 100 grain bullet pushed to a pretty decent velocity, but my load is above book max so I won't post it here.

Even at that, I usually opt for my 7mm rem mag for big game hunting. It hits hard, and somehow I doubt that I'd get more animals with my .243. I haven't lost one with the 7mm mag in the 20 years I've been using it. ;)

Daryl

kombi1976 02-07-2009 08:15 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I reckon more game has been shot in Oz with .243s and 303s than anything else too.
Well, actually, .22lr has probably accounted for more stuff in reality.
I can see that a BAR with the quick follow-ups would place you at a better advantage, but can you guarantee it won't jam?
I wouldn't know......I've never owned or used a BAR.
I would however like to know who makes a 195gr 7mm bullet.
As far as I'm aware 175gr is about the heaviest you'll find.
The thing about dangerous game is putting the heaviest, more well constructed bullet you possibly can into them and breaking bone.
It immobilises them and, if it's a head shot, kills them outright.
I can't think of any company in the world that designs controlled expansion bullets for .243 with dangerous game in mind.
Even Roy Weatherby, who believed in speed at all costs, didn't hunt big stuff with anything less than a 257 Mag and THAT, IMO, is well under requirements.

Steve D 02-07-2009 08:36 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Well, this has taken an interesting turn. Down here in Missouri, where the most dangerous thing I'm likely to run into would be those famous sabertooth squirrels, I would not be concerned about using a 223 with some good bullets (Barnes non-varmint, Nosler Partition, Sierra 70 gr Semi-Spitz) for deer. Now, if I thought I might face an angry brownie, I wouldn't feel overgunned with a 20mm, but that's just me. (Of course, the recoil would be unmanageable and I couldn't shoot it adequately.)

I think the point here is the same one made before, caliber doesn't make up for poor shot placement and sometimes a lesser caliber that promotes shot placement is a good thing. Now, for the 7-08, it is not better (or even quite as good) as the 7x57 (handloaded to its full potential, unlike factory ammunition), but it is almost as good and in a slightly shorter (lighter?) action. Don't sell your 7x57's, but the 7-08 is respectable within its limitations.

6.5? I haven't seen the 260 produce the same kind of energy one would wish for in those loooooong bullets. For real efficiency in the 6.5, I'm gonna have to have at least 55mm, and preferably 06 length to get the most out of it.

gitano 02-07-2009 04:00 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I take your point glen1, and appreciate that you didn't get your back up about this. I think you and I (and 'most everyone else in this thread) agree in principle. Namely "it's" ALL about shot placement. Bullet design is quite a bit further down the "priority pole", but... caliber is not. ;)

Welcome aboard.

Paul

glen1 02-07-2009 04:37 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 89736)
Which only goes to show that you don't understand how an arrow kills, either. Comparing the lethal affects of a rifle cartridge to a bow isn't a good comparison at all.

Elephants have been taken with a bow, too. Want to try that one with a .243?

I don't underestimate the .243. I've owned and have used various .243's, and have never been without one in the gun collection since 1976. I even shot out the barrel on one of those rifles after several thousand rounds were put through it.

But, the big bears are no joke, and anyone who'd want to face a charging, 1000+ lb (perhaps 1500 lbs?) critter with teeth and claws, that's intent on killing you, is a brave soul. Anyone willing to try that with a .243, IMO, may have a death wish about to come true. Those critters have zero respect for the life of another.

You say it can be done? I agree, but I wouldn't rest my life on being that lucky.

The .243 is a nice little cartridge, and I've enjoyed shooting it for many years. It's not a good large critter gun though. In the hands of a well disciplined, experienced hunter it CAN take elk, even if it's pretty light for that. I've an uncle who's shot a few elk with it, and it's done well for him. I also know that the same uncle once shot 3 out of four legs out from under a small bull elk once with a 7mm rem mag after the first shot (due to bad angle) glanced off of a shoulder blade. It was laying down on the first shot, and running through some jack-pines after that, and was a little harder to hit.

Which brings us back to real life; things don't always work out as planned when hunting. People make mistakes, and shots can go astray of where the shooter intended. In a perfect world, we could all hunt with a .22 LR for everything (because, after all, I've seen 1500 lb critters dropped in their tracks from a single .22 LR shot between the eyes).

You're right about one thing though; according to my loading book, I can push a 70 grain bullet at about 3600 fps using a compressed load of IMR4350. It's a fairly accurate load from my rifle, too. With that in mind, an 80 grain bullet at 3400 fps doesn't sound unreasonable. I usually hunt with a 100 grain bullet pushed to a pretty decent velocity, but my load is above book max so I won't post it here.

Even at that, I usually opt for my 7mm rem mag for big game hunting. It hits hard, and somehow I doubt that I'd get more animals with my .243. I haven't lost one with the 7mm mag in the 20 years I've been using it. ;)

Daryl

thank you for your open mind ,it could be done ,i no how a bow works ,and have many guns in big cal an in small cal an have done a lot of hunting ,most of my hunting is done with a kinfe and dogs ,catching wild boar in thick bush ,them things can kill you to if ya get a tusk in wrong place ,they kill many dogs evey year , geting back to the post , 308 or 30-06 for deer , both are good and work fine ,but there are a lot of fine deer cals around what ever you like to shot no one can tell you 30-06 is better or 308 is better cus what works for sum duznt for others

Daryl (deceased) 02-07-2009 07:17 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

cus what works for sum duznt for others
Exactly.

Daryl

sakorick 02-08-2009 06:31 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by glen1 (Post 89761)
thank you for your open mind ,it could be done ,i no how a bow works ,and have many guns in big cal an in small cal an have done a lot of hunting ,most of my hunting is done with a kinfe and dogs ,catching wild boar in thick bush ,them things can kill you to if ya get a tusk in wrong place ,they kill many dogs evey year , geting back to the post , 308 or 30-06 for deer , both are good and work fine ,but there are a lot of fine deer cals around what ever you like to shot no one can tell you 30-06 is better or 308 is better cus what works for sum duznt for others


Bingo. I keep an open ear though as recoil gets to be an issue when you get older. Thanks to Paul, I have a 375H&H load I can handle that would make a serious deer killer.....I just can't bring myself to trying it out.:D Regards, Rick.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.