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-   -   7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//showthread.php?t=5589)

periscope_depth 04-01-2006 12:08 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
I was using a ballistics calculator using the worst bc 150grn 30-06 vs the worst .260 129 grn bullet.

No question....the 30.06 is more powerful than the .260 but the numbers for the .308 150 grn spire point vs the .264 129 grn spire point is pretty accurate.

I have owned both the .30-06 and the .260 Rem. Let me say that the -06 kicks noticably more than the .260 but if you don't care about recoil the 30-06 is better.

Seriously folks.

Dead is dead no matter what.

The higher section density of the .264 means that it WILL penetrate deeper (everything else being equal). The killing power of the .264 caliber bullet is nearly legendary but that's for another post.

Simply put: A .260 will always be more efficient unless the hunter with the .308 wants to use a 190 grn match bullet.

Big Red Trike 04-01-2006 12:37 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Hey guys its my turn for a sec...LOL. All the calibres mentioned will adequately kill a deer be it Whitetail or Mule.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY...lots of people are recoil sensitive...thus sims or pachmyr recoil pads get used. If you are recoil sensitive use a pad.

Distance is another thing...we don't need to shoot 400 yds because we use our hunting skills and try to get closer...just because the rifle and calibre will kill at 400 yds doesn't mean we all have the skill to do it humanely...I have hunted with .243, 6.5 x 55 Swede (very good cartridge), .308 win, 30-06 Spr and finally my baby a Ruger MKII in 7mm REM MAG.

Pick a gun that feels right, swings nicely, fits your body, because it becomes an extension of you...and remember SHOT PLACEMENT IS ULITMATELY MORE IMPORTANT THAN CALIBRE...oh .308, .270 and .30-06 are the most readily available calibres to purchase. Darn even in the middle of nowhere (hanging a tree) you can buy ammo for those calibres if needed.

my .02

BRT

kombi1976 04-01-2006 08:12 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red Trike
...and remember SHOT PLACEMENT IS ULITMATELY MORE IMPORTANT THAN CALIBRE...

Unless......choice of calibre makes you unable to correctly place you shot.
I'm not going to argue penetration or anything else here but the strength of the 260 Rem, 7mm-08 and their real ancestors the 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser cartridges is that their low recoil allow the shooter to place the shot well more easily than a bigger cal/cartridge that has more energy.
Even those who don't suffer from recoil when using the 270, 308 and 30-06 can benefit from using lower recoil cartridges as it allows them to be more precise.
The efficiency is recoil vs capability and all four of those cartridges are known for their real world performance that belies the numbers on paper.
But yeah, the 270, 308 and 30-06 are all effective middle weights and ammo is disgustingly easy to find.

glen1 02-06-2009 11:19 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kombi1976 (Post 42481)
Unless......choice of calibre makes you unable to correctly place you shot.
I'm not going to argue penetration or anything else here but the strength of the 260 Rem, 7mm-08 and their real ancestors the 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser cartridges is that their low recoil allow the shooter to place the shot well more easily than a bigger cal/cartridge that has more energy.
Even those who don't suffer from recoil when using the 270, 308 and 30-06 can benefit from using lower recoil cartridges as it allows them to be more precise.
The efficiency is recoil vs capability and all four of those cartridges are known for their real world performance that belies the numbers on paper.
But yeah, the 270, 308 and 30-06 are all effective middle weights and ammo is disgustingly easy to find.

all in all i hunt with pepole who use 308,30-06,7m-08, and i shoot more deer than them all year round with my little old 243cal ,red deer ,and elk one shot kills out to 300yrds ,but how far do you want to shoot them at my m8s have more range than me with there 30-06 but they dont get many deer, i allways get 15 to 20 more a year then them now i got a 7x57 and i will still shoot more,

gitano 02-07-2009 12:14 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Well now glen1, I wooda just let your post go by unchallenged, 'cause for the most part, this issue is a tempest in a teapot. But then you went and invoked the "brown bear". :eek As most here know, I have an affinity for hunting them, and when I read comments like yours, I am reminded of my "speed uber alles" days and how wrong I too was about them and "energy".

I could go on and on, (something else the folks that have been here for a while understand ;) ), but I'll stick to the very specific point you raised, and offer a real-world example. The first Alaskan coastal brown bear I ever shot, I was using a 7mm Remington Mag with handloaded 175-grain Nosler Partitions. Skipping over the good stuff,
the first shot went in under the collar-bone crossed through the chest and out through a rear rib. The bear didn't even flinch. However, that wasn't your scenario. Yours is a "brain shot at a hundred yards".

So after the first shot, the bear whirled around and started running away. I fired again, hitting the bear in the zygomatic arch (cheekbone). He rolled, and came up running. There's more to the story, and a couple more shots, but I'll cut the the part where we dug the bullet out.

That 175-grain Partition, doing about 2900 f/s at the muzzle, didn't even break the zygomatic arch. I found it about 3" past it's entry point, peeled all the way back to the partition.

Now an 80-grain .243 FMJ bullet doing 3400 f/s at the muzzle, (I can't get QuickLoad to get that bullet going that fast at the muzzle from a .243 Win case, but let's not argue that point), will be doing about 3016 f/s at 100 yds. At that impact velocity, that bullet will have about 1600 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.

The 175 Partition out of the 7mm RM case is doing about 2641 at 150yds (about the range at which I shot that bear in the head), and have 2710 ft-lbs of KE. If the Partition didn't break that bear's skull with over a 1000 ft-lbs more energy, I don't have quite the faith you do in that little 'hot-rod'. Maybe if you put it up his nose, or in his eye, or ...

I went out and bought a .338 WM.

If you ever get a chance to go brown bear hunting with your .243, lemme know. I wanna go along. :)

Paul

recoil junky 02-07-2009 01:47 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
You go ahead and go along gitano, I'll stay in the bear proof cage wih my 45-70.

:help:

RJ

glen1 02-07-2009 02:57 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gitano (Post 89730)
Well now glen1, I wooda just let your post go by unchallenged, 'cause for the most part, this issue is a tempest in a teapot. But then you went and invoked the "brown bear". :eek As most here know, I have an affinity for hunting them, and when I read comments like yours, I am reminded of my "speed uber alles" days and how wrong I too was about them and "energy".

I could go on and on, (something else the folks that have been here for a while understand ;) ), but I'll stick to the very specific point you raised, and offer a real-world example. The first Alaskan coastal brown bear I ever shot, I was using a 7mm Remington Mag with handloaded 175-grain Nosler Partitions. Skipping over the good stuff,
the first shot went in under the collar-bone crossed through the chest and out through a rear rib. The bear didn't even flinch. However, that wasn't your scenario. Yours is a "brain shot at a hundred yards".

So after the first shot, the bear whirled around and started running away. I fired again, hitting the bear in the zygomatic arch (cheekbone). He rolled, and came up running. There's more to the story, and a couple more shots, but I'll cut the the part where we dug the bullet out.

That 175-grain Partition, doing about 2900 f/s at the muzzle, didn't even break the zygomatic arch. I found it about 3" past it's entry point, peeled all the way back to the partition.

Now an 80-grain .243 FMJ bullet doing 3400 f/s at the muzzle, (I can't get QuickLoad to get that bullet going that fast at the muzzle from a .243 Win case, but let's not argue that point), will be doing about 3016 f/s at 100 yds. At that impact velocity, that bullet will have about 1600 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.

The 175 Partition out of the 7mm RM case is doing about 2641 at 150yds (about the range at which I shot that bear in the head), and have 2710 ft-lbs of KE. If the Partition didn't break that bear's skull with over a 1000 ft-lbs more energy, I don't have quite the faith you do in that little 'hot-rod'. Maybe if you put it up his nose, or in his eye, or ...

I went out and bought a .338 WM.

If you ever get a chance to go brown bear hunting with your .243, lemme know. I wanna go along. :)

Paul

yeh you mite be right m8 , i no they a big beast ,but i still think it could be done ,
IMR4350 45.0g 3431.fps 1724 ft-lbs of kinetic energy with a barnes banded solid would work ,a partition will mushroom dumping 1/2 its energy on the out side ,you shood try the E tip , a fmj solid will punch a hole. all i was geting at was no matter what gun you have with the right shot placement you can pull just about any thing off ,i can shoot a 20cent coin at 100yards with my 243 so maybe i could shoot it in the eye ,id give it a go any way

kombi1976 02-07-2009 03:12 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
It's reassuring to think you can shoot that well, Glen.
Paul's bear started to run away from him.
What about if you missed the eye, cut his face and the bear at 100yds thought the odds were in his favour and ran TOWARDS you.......
Can you shoot him in the eye while he runs at you at about 35mph?
They look slow but if they're annoyed they can REALLY move.
At that point a 338 Win Mag or 45-70 look really good.
Even a 9.3x62 looks good.

glen1 02-07-2009 05:04 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kombi1976 (Post 89733)
It's reassuring to think you can shoot that well, Glen.
Paul's bear started to run away from him.
What about if you missed the eye, cut his face and the bear at 100yds thought the odds were in his favour and ran TOWARDS you.......
Can you shoot him in the eye while he runs at you at about 35mph?
They look slow but if they're annoyed they can REALLY move.
At that point a 338 Win Mag or 45-70 look really good.
Even a 9.3x62 looks good.

yes you are right all im saying is it could be done ,but i all so no that you could be killed just as ez to, but if it was standing side on you may be able to pull it off or if you were in a tree stand and could get a good shot off ,7x57 with a 195gr would be better ,but if all i had was my browning bar 243 id give it a go ,not say that a 243 is a good brown bear round but it could get the job done if thats all you had to work with ,pepole take them with a bow ,i feel a lot of pepole think they have to use a big gun to make up for poor shot placement ,i used the 243 cos pepole under rate it,as a deer gun and think you need a 308 or 30-06 but more deer have been shot with 243 and 303 in new zealand then any other gun ,im not saying that 243 is a bear round but could be done all the ones ive seen shot on video look ez to get a shot at not that video is real hunting and i am not dising the brown bear as i no they are not sum thing to fc.@.k around with or they will kill you,P.S any of you rich americans want to fly me over there i be more than happy to try and proof it ,if it all gos wrong pepole will all ways no the tail of the dumb kiwi who tryed to kill a brown bear with a 243 ,but if im right il be like the kiwi with the worlds fastest indian whos speed record in the usa to this day has never been beaten

Daryl (deceased) 02-07-2009 07:47 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

not say that a 243 is a good brown bear round but it could get the job done if thats all you had to work with ,pepole take them with a bow ,
Which only goes to show that you don't understand how an arrow kills, either. Comparing the lethal affects of a rifle cartridge to a bow isn't a good comparison at all.

Elephants have been taken with a bow, too. Want to try that one with a .243?

I don't underestimate the .243. I've owned and have used various .243's, and have never been without one in the gun collection since 1976. I even shot out the barrel on one of those rifles after several thousand rounds were put through it.

But, the big bears are no joke, and anyone who'd want to face a charging, 1000+ lb (perhaps 1500 lbs?) critter with teeth and claws, that's intent on killing you, is a brave soul. Anyone willing to try that with a .243, IMO, may have a death wish about to come true. Those critters have zero respect for the life of another.

You say it can be done? I agree, but I wouldn't rest my life on being that lucky.

The .243 is a nice little cartridge, and I've enjoyed shooting it for many years. It's not a good large critter gun though. In the hands of a well disciplined, experienced hunter it CAN take elk, even if it's pretty light for that. I've an uncle who's shot a few elk with it, and it's done well for him. I also know that the same uncle once shot 3 out of four legs out from under a small bull elk once with a 7mm rem mag after the first shot (due to bad angle) glanced off of a shoulder blade. It was laying down on the first shot, and running through some jack-pines after that, and was a little harder to hit.

Which brings us back to real life; things don't always work out as planned when hunting. People make mistakes, and shots can go astray of where the shooter intended. In a perfect world, we could all hunt with a .22 LR for everything (because, after all, I've seen 1500 lb critters dropped in their tracks from a single .22 LR shot between the eyes).

You're right about one thing though; according to my loading book, I can push a 70 grain bullet at about 3600 fps using a compressed load of IMR4350. It's a fairly accurate load from my rifle, too. With that in mind, an 80 grain bullet at 3400 fps doesn't sound unreasonable. I usually hunt with a 100 grain bullet pushed to a pretty decent velocity, but my load is above book max so I won't post it here.

Even at that, I usually opt for my 7mm rem mag for big game hunting. It hits hard, and somehow I doubt that I'd get more animals with my .243. I haven't lost one with the 7mm mag in the 20 years I've been using it. ;)

Daryl


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