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-   -   7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer (http://thehunterslife.com/forums//showthread.php?t=5589)

gitano 03-22-2006 12:00 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
You should consider the .308 Win. It hits "harder" than the 7mm-08 or the 7x57, and recoils less than the '06. Ammo is almost as ubiquitous as for the '06.

As far as manufacturers go... find a rifle you like the 'feel' of and buy it. Any over-the-counter rifle might shoot spectacularly... or not. I've bought over-the-counter rifles that shot very well, and I've bought ones that needed considerable work to get to acceptable precision. If you want one that you know for certain will shoot small groups, you're going to have to go, at least to some degree, "custom", or... 'roll the dice' at the counter.

Paul

sakorick 03-22-2006 09:22 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Gosh, I never would have posted on this thread if I thought I was going to get "piled on" this bad. So I will defend myself to wit: All I said was IMHO the 7mm-08 was my least favorite 7mm caliber and I'm sticking to that. I do not use any factory ammunition except in my .22LR. I consider the 7MM-08 a fad. When it has been around for 120 years it will progress to my classic status and that's what I consider the 7mm Mauser to be. If you think the 7mm-08 kicks less than the 7mm Mauser loaded for bear, you are sadly mistaken....there is no perceptible difference. The 7mm Mauser shoots 100'/sec faster than the 7mm-08 with every reload I've tried.....and I've tried many many combos. Finally, I didn't bash the 7mm-08....I mearly stated it is not a caliber on my "A" list. I never said it was terrible and in fact that is exactly the opposite. It is a very fine cartridge....but IMHO there are other 7mm cartridges that are far superior.

To compare the 7mm-08 with a 30'06/.308 is not a fair comparison. Both the .308 and '06 have far superior knock down power at all ranges.

To all you 7mm-08 owners, you have a very very fine deer rifle.....just don't try to compare it with calibers with numbers that can't come close.

Finally, the 7mm-08 is an American thing. The 7mm Mauser is a German/European thing. The big boys invented something that was already there. Pump and dump tactics don't work on this old soldier. Regards, Rick.

Squirrel 03-22-2006 09:30 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Thank you gentlemen so much for your inputs. All have been very beneficial and knowledged filled. I'm going to the Bass Pro Shop on Saturday to pick up some ammo for my .30-30 and I will shoulder a couple of brands then. I will let you all know the calibur I choose when I make my brand selection.


Squirrel:cool:

Gmoney 03-23-2006 01:28 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Good post Rick.....

Brithunter 03-23-2006 04:53 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Squirrel,

An excellent idea and one I heartly concur with in all possible ways.

heck I am not keen on the 6mm's or .243 yet I now have a 6mm remington just because a rifle that I rather liked to look of and felt good was just priced too cheap to pass up. Yep I am really blighted by this rifle sickness!

kombi1976 03-23-2006 06:25 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sakorick
The big boys invented something that was already there.

Yep, you're right, Rick.
7mm-08 was a long established highly popular metallic silhouette cartridge long before Remington legitimised it.
But I don't think that's what you meant......... ;)
I'm actually a fan of the 7x57......but then I reload.
Squirrel, if you intend to hunt elk or moose then buy a 30-06.
If you like a low recoiling round for deer that's inherently accurate & bigger hitting in the field than on paper then you'd go a long way before finding something better than the 7mm-08.
7mm is an excellent calibre, there's plenty of good premium ammo and your shoulder will love you.
But then you could buy the 7mm-08 and buy a 30-06 or 300 WSM later...... :D
Woo-ha-ha-ha!! WOO-HA-HA!! WOO-HA-HA!!! (evil laugh) :eek: :p

bigboar 03-23-2006 05:50 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Squirrel, I do not care for either of the two cartriges that you question. but if I had to pick between one to go deer hunting with, I would pick the 06 most definitly. I would not agree with the statement that it is a flat shooting round. The 08 is flatter. But the 06 is alot more caliber in every other way. If I were going to target shoot comp. I would go with the 08 for recoil reasons. As for rifles I totaly agree with a-bolt. You can't go wrong there. Accuracy, good bolt action, great trigger, good fill, it's all there. As far as price goes you start with the base a-bolt hunter ot stalker at around $550 dollars.I know nothing of tikka or CZ but I will say that Sakorick has really got me wanting one CZ varmit rifle in 22-250. As for the budget remington and savage rifles that you spoke of, I would steer clear of both. You can get a Weatherby Vangaurd in 06 at wall-mart for $385. It is a great rifle for the money.

periscope_depth 03-30-2006 10:59 PM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
If you are talking a DEER rifle....I have to say that I love cartridges made off of the .308 case.

The .308 bullet is at coefficent best at 180 grn plus.

You simply don't need 180 bullet in a .308 caliber to kill a deer. The reality is that the 150 grn bullet in .308 is (IMHO) best for deer out of any .308 caliber rifle.

The problem is that at longer ranges...that 150 grn bullet will lose energy faster than a 140 grn bullet out of a 7mm round or a even a 129 grn bullet out of a .260 Rem.

In other words...you will get the KICK from the 30-06 but 300 yards down range, the 7mm-08 or the .260 will have more energy with a bullet totally suited for deer sized game.

You never asked about other rounds but I can think of none other better than the .260 Rem (which is the .308 case necked down to .264 caliber). But as I stated, the 7mm-08 is the better choice if you are only deciding between the 30-06 and the 7mm-08.

In the end...both will kill deer as far as you can shoot accurately as deer are not hard to kill. Shooting a round that doesn't kick as much is actually much more fun and knowing that it is delivering as much energy down range as a more powerful round makes you feel like you are cheating.

Observe the tables:

The 150 grn .308 spire pt hits with 3000 ft/e at the muzzle.

This translates into RECOIL. Not so much that you can't shoot it ...but that if shoot it often, its going to hurt. You'll have to practice with the '06 and your practice is going to hurt after 20 rounds.

At 100 yards...the '06 has a very lethal 2450 fp/e. More than enough energy to take down a deer provided you can shoot it straight.

At 200 yards 2000 ft/e very lethal

300 yards the 1616 foot lbs energy....the max range you should be shooting at a big game animal unless you have lots of training and have a very superior rifle.

The 260 Rem strikes with an energy of 2246 fp/e at the muzzle. Compare that with the 3000 fp/e of the 30-06. As we all know...2246 fp-e is totally over kill on deer but we know that the .260 will kick nearly half as less.

Out to 100 yards the .260 is carrying 1923 fp/e same as the '06 at 200 yards.

At 200..the .260 has 1644 fp/e same as the '06 at 200...but if you'll notice, the ballistic coefficient of the .260 is retaining energy and velocity better than the 30-06. You'll note that the 129 grn .264 caliber 260 is longer (and denser) than the 30-06 and so it will penetrate deeper at any given velocity. At 200 yards the 260 is going 2,400 fps and the .308 is going the same speed. The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of its lower weight and lessor energy.

At 300 yards the .260 is going 2,211fps and is actually going faster than than 30-06. Energy is a robust 1,400 fps. As reference, this is more energy than a 44 magnum at the muzzle but with a bullet that is longer and denser than 44 magnum.

The .260 shoots as flat or flatter than the 30-06. It hits nearly as hard as the 30-06 at 300 yards but kicks nearly half as much.

At truly long ranges...the ability to control kick and the effect of recoil on accurate shooting is critical at making accurate long range shots.




Gmoney 03-31-2006 12:19 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by periscope_depth
At 200..the .260 has 1644 fp/e same as the '06 at 200...but if you'll notice, the ballistic coefficient of the .260 is retaining energy and velocity better than the 30-06. You'll note that the 129 grn .264 caliber 260 is longer (and denser) than the 30-06 and so it will penetrate deeper at any given velocity. At 200 yards the 260 is going 2,400 fps and the .308 is going the same speed. The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of its lower weight and lessor energy.

Hmmmm....I'm trying to follow you here PD, you switch midstream from the .308 to the '06 but my comments mainly refer to the above quote......do not know where you got those energy or velocity numbers but a pretty universal ballistic chart is the one at Remington.com......you mention the 129 in the .260 and the 150 in the '06, so here we go....

At 400 yds. the '06 still had 100 more ft./lbs. of energy than the .260 and at 500 the .260 finally surpasses it....

You say the '06 and .260 have the same energy at 200 yds...don't know where you are getting this but with these two bullets the '06 still has the .260 by almost 250 ft./lbs.....keep in mind that we are using the "best" bullet weight in the .260 and one of the "worst" in the '06....I bet if you reran these numbers with a 180 in the '06 these numbers will be farther apart.....

The .264 will penetrate deeper in spite of lower weight and lesser energy?

Hmmmmm.....

Sure the .260 will have much less felt recoil than the '06 but some of your figures are misleading.......http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums...ilies/cool.gif

sakorick 03-31-2006 09:13 AM

Re: 7mm-08 or .30-06 for Deer
 
PD. Sorry sir, your numbers are flat out wrong and misleading. You want the truth? The 30'06 shoots flatter and has way more energy down range than the 260 Remington. Lets compare apples to apples. I'll use my reloads with my chronograph numbers and the highest BC bullet for both calibers...the Swift Scirocco bullet. The .264 130gr bullet has a BC of .571 while the .308 has a BC of 470 with the 165gr bullet. MV of the 260 is 2715'/sec fired on my range using a 700 Rem BDL.....I believe with a 22 inch barrel. The '06 is a Sako 23 1/2 inch barrel with a MV of 2895. v=velocity, e= energy, t= trajectory 250 yd zero

260 range 0 MV 2715 e 2128 t -2
100 yds v 2560 e 1984 t +3.2
200 yds v 2410 e 1677 t +2.5
300 yds v 2267 e 1483 t -4.1
400 yds v 2127 e 1306 t -17.5

'06 range 0 MV2885 e 3049 t-2
100 yds v 2690 e 2650 t +2.8
200 yds v 2503 e 2295 t +2.3
300 yds v 2325 e 1980 t -3.8
400 yds v 2154 e 1700 t -16.3

Summary....not even close. There just aren't any other cartridges out there short of a belted magnum or wildcat that can touch those numbers. The 280 Remington comes close....but no cigar. The 270 is a wee bit flatter but just doesn't have the energy. The 308 is close....shoot, they are all close but the numbers speak for themselves. This is why the '06 is king, has been king and will be king.

As for the recoil....all I can say is I started shooting a 30'06 when I was 13 years old.....never hurt my shoulder one time in 43 years.

Is the 260 Remington a fine deer rifle? Yes, of course. But don't think for a minute that a little bullet generating 500 foot pounds less energy is going to have more penetration/knock down power than a big bullet generating 500ft pounds more. Look at the 300 yard numbers. Physics just doesn't work that way. And now I'm off to reload some 6.5-284 winchester rounds for the first testing! Regards, Rick.


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