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periscope_depth
03-03-2005, 04:39 PM
The round is made for the big bore Winchester lever action and other than being kinda cool....what good is it?

In terms of energy.....it is equal to or in some cases LESS powerful than the 30-30 out to hunting distances.

In terms of trajectory.......nearly equally as bad as the 45-70 or the 444 Marlin.

You would be safe in saying that it offers the worst of the 30-30 in power and the worst of the 45-70 in ballistics.

Am I the only one who wonders why Winchester would make such an ill conceived round? Please, someone show me ONE person who would rather hunt with a .375 Winchester than a .348 Winchester or a .358 Winchester? Even the .356 Winchester had so much more going for it than the .375.

My goodness....if I wanted something that was going to limit my range to under 150 yards and was going to put a big hole in something without the recoil and blast of a big thumper.....I'd grab a handy 44 magnum and be done with it.

The .375 Win is a waste. I wish the firearms manufacturers would come out in an arm that was useful to 250 yards and could be had in a lever action rifle. Is this too much to ask??

m gardner
03-03-2005, 07:15 PM
I purchased a Big Bore 94 when they first appeared in the late 1970's (I think?). It was a handsome rifle , accurate, and handled well. I think it was a smokeless powder recreation of th 38-55 blackpowder round. I took several deer with it but had to pass on the longer shots. It found a new home soon after deer season as I couldn't find a good reason to keep it except maybe to look at and play with. There are many better calibers to hunt with unless you want to challenge yourself and maybe go hungry. The 375 JDJ in the same rifle would be a hunting machine though! God bless and good hunting.

Jay Edward
03-03-2005, 11:25 PM
Take a look at this thread:
http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329 (http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329)

Now...in a world that you do not operate, the 375 Win/.38-55 is quite an accuracy round. I have used it in one or two silhouette shoots and did very well.

I've used it on deer and Black Bear without ever a problem. Like many of the larger calibers, it does not need to expand to create a wound channel.

It is inexpensive to shoot with lead bullets, it has a low report and I've used it to take the heads off grouse while hunting other game.

It is my experience that the potential of the older cartridges is not limited to their design, the firearms they are chambered in or their trajectories. The cartridges are limited by the men and women who shoot them.

m gardner
03-04-2005, 12:56 AM
Please forgive me for insulting your caliber. My grandfather used an old savage in 38-55 to put meat on the table for many years. He was a native american as was my grandma. To say he could hunt was an understatement. But he knew the limitations of his equipment. I filled all my tags the year I owned the 375 winchester but was lured away by the thought of being able to shoot farther. Guess I'm just lazy. My grandpa would be ashamed of me.

Jay Edward
03-04-2005, 01:44 AM
Sorry mg...I didn't mean to give the impression I was insulted, or even angry. No, I just do my best to defend old cartridges that really do not need to be defended. Their successful history is their own defense.

I guess what happens is that new cartridges come along and younger hunters, riflemen and shooters re-designate them as the 'standard' by which to measure all other cartridges. When this happens...the older cartridges suddenly become 'obsolete' and 'way below standard'.

But there is always a surviving few who know the deadly efficiency of the older cartridges (or firearms) and still have the skills to make them work.

I have deliberately hunted deer with handguns (usually .45 Colt) but the experience most imprinted on my mind is my oft repeated story of taking a deer, at an opportune moment, with a .44 cap & ball Colt 1860 Army. A lead roundball in the right place and he was dead. Should I be surprized? No. The 1860 Army was used with great deadliness during the Civil War and it is foolish to believe that it doesn't kill good because the .357 is the current 'standard'.

I personally use a 265 grain .376 diameter bullet in my rifle and it will take anything in North America if I do my part...which includes stalking the game.

I also intend (and have the materials) to build a singleshot in .30-40 Krag...which falls below the 'bar' set by the .30-06 or .308 Winchester. I've shot a few deer with another customized .30-40 Krag I have and it always produced the desired results.

I reckon that puts me in good company...with your grandpa.

CAfrica
03-04-2005, 05:22 AM
Horses for courses. I also like the "slow" calibres for bush hunting. I find it much more satisfying to have to get within 80 yards or so of the quarry than simply to knock them over from several hundred yards away. Obviously the long shots have a different satisfaction but it only makes sense to me in terrain where the stalk is not an option.

To get my long shot kicks, I would rather take out my 220 Swift and knock over some varmints at 300 yards plus. Long shot + small target = high satisfaction!

The fact that there are "other" calibres that do the same thing has never been a reason for a cartrdige not to exist. COTW claim to contain 1500 sporting cartridges (a bit of an exaggeration). Yet still we keep producing new ones.

You will also be surprised to see how many of the hugely successful modern catridges are virtual copies of other cartridges that existed long before the modern ones were launched.

C

klallen
03-04-2005, 08:46 AM
I've been reminded on several occasions by the good folks here and over on other sites that shots of extreme close range (under 100 yds.) are more the norm for the average hunter then then those shots of a longish nature. I do not fall into this category, but, assuming this be true, the .375 would certainly not be considered a waste of a cartridge. While I've never used one, hearing from experienced of those that have, I've gotta accept the fact that the .375 Win. performs under these conditions quite admirably.

Either way, from my personal perspective, the cartridge is far from a waste for the simple fact that, in time, I will need it so that I can keep feeding my .375 SuperMag, if'n when I ever run through my current lot of discontinued factory brass.

I don't necessarily like certain cartridges, but I would never call them a waste either, cause there's no doubt the rounds that I have no use for, others think are gems and are more then satisfied with the performance they're getting. Later. >> klallen

periscope_depth
03-04-2005, 02:58 PM
Let me be clear:

The .375 Winchester is a fine cartridge and for 80% of my likely shots at whitetails....would be more than adequate.

I have every reason to WANT to like the .375 Winchester....I like the idea of a big bore bullet and the effeciency of doing more with less. I like the fact that not everyone has a .375 Winchester.

As I said.....most of the shots at whitetail deer in Missouri come at less than 75 yards from deer stands overlooking deer paths, creeks and sometimes deep woods. My deer stand overlooks all 3...yet it also overlooks about 250 yards of pasture in a field bordering thick woods. If my buck ventures out from the woods to cross a field due to the pressure of hunters or the smell of a doe.....I want to be able to take that shot. The exception to the rule is what makes the .375 Winchester obsolete. Not sure how I am suppose to stalk a whitetail buck from my deer stand....expecially with the cracking of leaves and the movement he would see as I climb out of my deer stand to approach him over open land to his position.

The .375 Winchester needs another 350 to 400 fps to have a chance at that buck across the field.

At that point, the .375 becomes the .358 Winchester....a round that I think should be available in EVERY model 94 Big Bore.

Jay Edward
03-05-2005, 11:29 PM
The round is made for the big bore Winchester lever action and other than being kinda cool....what good is it?

In terms of energy.....it is equal to or in some cases LESS powerful than the 30-30 out to hunting distances.

In terms of trajectory.......nearly equally as bad as the 45-70 or the 444 Marlin.

You would be safe in saying that it offers the worst of the 30-30 in power and the worst of the 45-70 in ballistics.

Am I the only one who wonders why Winchester would make such an ill conceived round? Please, someone show me ONE person who would rather hunt with a .375 Winchester than a .348 Winchester or a .358 Winchester? Even the .356 Winchester had so much more going for it than the .375.

My goodness....if I wanted something that was going to limit my range to under 150 yards and was going to put a big hole in something without the recoil and blast of a big thumper.....I'd grab a handy 44 magnum and be done with it.

The .375 Win is a waste. I wish the firearms manufacturers would come out in an arm that was useful to 250 yards and could be had in a lever action rifle. Is this too much to ask??
Contrast your above post...and the title of the thread...with your last post.

You may like to compare the .30-30 and the .375 Win.

M1Garand
03-06-2005, 01:34 PM
Interesting thread and a question that could be raised for numerous rounds out there as many seem to be clones or don't do anything another one can't. Many seem to be close enough in performance that it's redundant. But I enjoy seeing what comes out or what is being developed in the great sport of hunting/shooting.

Of course some cartridges are better than others. Some make it and are seemingly timeless while others do not. Some that make it and are popular aren't as good IMO as some that don't (the 35 Rem vs the 358 Win comes to mind). But it's part of the evolution of firearms. It'd be pretty boring if they stopped at the 22LR, .223 Rem, 30-06 Spfld, and the 338 Win Mag. They pretty much cover anything you'd hunt in most of the world except for a few animals. I personally enjoy different calibers and firearms and am getting more and more partial to older calibers (except I have a 204 Ruger and the 325 WSM does peak my interest). I think it's all part of the process of development by researching and developing different cartridges and why many we see calibers such as the .375. I have no exp with the .375 but I like big bores and they're great for thick woods and short range situations. Many have their niche and that's why I got my .358 Win. For the open areas/farmland I have my .270 Win.

periscope_depth
03-10-2005, 11:36 AM
Well put M1Garand!

I am much more of a fan of the old time rounds today than I was when I was younger.

The .375 Winchester is an interesting round and (as I said before) would be terrific for 80% of the likely shots I would encounter in Missouri. I would not feel too cheated if I had to pass on a 225 yard shot as I would know that if I waited long enough....I'd see a deer standing within 125 feet of me. At that point....the round you are using is largely academic.

I am really taking an interest in lever action guns more and more....and it is a shame that these handly little lever guns are so limited by the shapes of the bullets they fire and the weakness of the action.

I think I would die and go to heaven if Winchester made a rimmed .257 Roberts for the Model 94. I would snatch it up and keep it forever.

Instead, I have a limited choice of the 30-30, 44 Mag, 35 Remington and thats about it sportsfans.

Sure....I could spend an additional $200 and get a 450 Marlin or another $150 and get a 45-70 or 444 Marlin....but after 125 yards, the energy and trajectory figures are similiar to the 30-30 anyway. Whats the use of getting your shoulder tenderized for the same downrange ballistics you'd find with a mild shooting 30-30?

Savage NEEDS to reproduce the Model 99. Hey, maybe another company would like to get the specs on the 99 and go into production if Savage won't do it themselves?

neolithic hunter
03-10-2005, 10:06 PM
well i've been using a 6.5mm here recently but don't discount the big hole that a big bullet will make. this comming deer season i'm going to take my 7 yr old, and i'm going to take 2 rifles with me. 1's going to be a 375 winchester (375 win is the smokless version of the 38-55) and a 45-70 both lever guns. the reason i'm doing this is to show my son what his grandfather hunted with and how well it works on deer sized critters. i put a lyman pep and a blade site on my 375 and have no problem taking game at over 200 yrds with it. it has killed it fare share of whitetails as has my 45-70. i shoot lead bullet out of these 2 rifles, i have never had an animal go more than 40 yrds after a good lung shot. last time i shot a deer with my 45-70 i got a two-fer 1 spike and the doe standing behind him (i didn't see her till i had to put my doe tag on her). the 375 (38-55) is a great round if it is used as it was intended, and thats to take game, it does a very good job of it.

periscope_depth
03-11-2005, 05:52 PM
neolithic hunter, very nice post.

Any of the standard 6.5 mm catridges available on the market today will take deer sized game as far (and even further) than you have any business taking a shot. What I mean is, the 6.5 mm has excellent ballistic characteristics and can be driven fast enough to kill out reliably out to 300 yards.

It seems that both the .375 Win and the 45-70 are rounds of a different feather. The 45-70 is going to tenderize your shoulder and even if sighted in at 100 yards....is truly no more of a 150 yard gun.

The .375 is much more mild mannered....but again, you are asking for trouble for anything past 150 yards.....the bullet drop is just too severe and your range estimation has to be nearly perfect.

Both are incredible rounds and are extremely deadly up to 150 yards.....but lets think about this a bit more.

The .375 and a 6.5x55 will kick about the same amount. The faster bullet will continue to keep on keeping on out to 300 yards whereas the .375 caliber bullet has hit dirt about 165 yards away. This means you have to pass up any shot on a deer you see at the edge of a clearing or one you might have jumped in a field.

neolithic hunter
03-11-2005, 09:43 PM
periscope i see that your basing your yardage figures out of the book. it's a good place to start but doesn't reflect the truth. the 375 range issue is strictky based on the capabilities of the shooter not the capabilities of the round. the 38-55 was used with good results on animals as large and larger than elk. the trajectories you quote are correct but the inability to dope range is strictly shooter dependent. the 45-70 is also discounted by you for the same reason. yes it kicks more than a 375 or a average 6.5 mm rifle. but it has no more recoil tham my 6.5x68s and it does not need speed to be effective at range. i have shot deer with the 45-70 and 45-110 at over 400 yrds. in either case the deer didn't appear that it had been shot by a round that was not capable of doing what it was intended to do. the 45-70 and larger cased 45 cal. rounds have been taking game a extended ranges for over a century. the same issue can be said for the 30-30 being a 150 yrd rifle, but my t/c in 30-30 is a 250 yrd gun. why is this, it has to do with the standard factory sites on most of these rifles. with the correct sites, and a little for knowalge of where your bullet will hit at different ranges, these rifles hold a different place in the deer woods. don't discount a round as febiel and punny until you've used it as it was intended. LOL and happy hunting:cool:

periscope_depth
03-12-2005, 12:19 PM
Neolithic.....

First let me say that if you are able to connect to 400 yards with your 45-70 90 times out of 100 on game animals....then you are truly a 1 in a million hunter shooting a rifle that is more accurate than 1000 others just like it. Your skill must be a God given talent honed by hundreds of thousands of hours shooting and hunting. Truly remarkable.

For the other 999,999 of us....we cannot reasonably take shots that are this far as only on in a thousand can judge the range of a game animal past 200 yards plus or minus 40 yards with 99% accuracy. Not a big deal with a flat shooting .270 Winchester...but the difference between a hit or a miss with a .375 Winchester.


I would suspect that the energy levels of these rounds would drop well below 500 fps out to 400 yards. Its not enough to score a hit....you have to make a hit in the neck to really but the critter down.


There are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule. Neolithic hunter is one of those one in a million cases. For us normal people.....the .375 Winchester has some major limitations.

neolithic hunter
03-13-2005, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE=periscope_depth]Neolithic.....

Not a big deal with a flat shooting .270 Winchester...but the difference between a hit or a miss with a .375 Winchester.


I would suspect that the energy levels of these rounds would drop well below 500 fps out to 400 yards. Its not enough to score a hit....you have to make a hit in the neck to really but the critter down.

periscope i went ahead and looked up the tables on the 270 win. with a 130 gr. bullet at 3100 fps standard loading, 45-70 with a 405 gr ldfp at 1700 fps standard loading, and a 375 win. with a 235 gr bullet at 2000 fps standard loading. i just wanted give you a comparison of statistics to ponder. the 130 gr spbt 270 bullet at 3100 fps is moving 1464 fps at 500 yrds with 621 fp of energy. the 405 gr ldfp 45-70 bullet at 1700 fps on the other hand is moving at 940 fps at 500 yrds with 784 fpe. the 235 gr semi-spitzer .375 bullet at 2000 fps is moving at 1000 fps at 500 yrds with 491 fpe. if you take the 44 mag pistol round starting at 1400 fps is moving at 1000 fps at 150 yrds with 590 fpe., and is considered a round that will cleanly take game at 150 yrds from a hand gun. if what you say is true, that a 270 win. has enough velocity and energy to take game at 400 yrds, then at 500 it does not. while the 45-70 has less velocity, it is carring more energy at these given yardages. so the 45-70 is better suited to long range than the 270 win. as you can see the .375 win is still at the 500 fpe mark at 500 yrds. i will admit that it takes actually shooting to gain a knowlege of your weapons capabilities, and having the ability to figure bullet drop is not a major problem with the advent of the lazer range finder. but nothing beats being in the field. i don't think your analligy of making a 400 yrd shot with any kind of regularity, is to much to ask of a hunter today. in the late 1800's is was common to take buffalo at 1000 yrds with black powder and paper patched bullets. with todays technolegy and ammo that the common hunter has at his or her disposal a 400 yrd shot is not that odd, even with a round that was developed 100 yrs ago. i'm not 1 in a million and neither were the hunters of the late 1800's. what worked then is still able to work now. LOL:cool:

M1Garand
03-13-2005, 05:44 PM
Neolithic,
Not sure which tables you got your numbers out of but the numbers for the .270 Win seemed low to me. I have been experimenting with that caliber for years and numerous powder/bullet combos and the 130 gr is a light fast bullet and that didn't sound right to me for it to go from 3100 fps MV to 1464 @ 500 yards so I fired up one of my ballistic programs. Here are the figures I get for a .270 Win @ 500 yards from a couple of 130 gr bullets at the MV you mentioned, 3100 fps:

Sierra Gameking 2052 fps, 1216 fp energy
Speer SBT 2112 fps, 1288 fp energy
Hornady SST 2133 fps, 1313 fp energy

periscope_depth
03-13-2005, 08:23 PM
I think the facts will always show that the bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient will retain more energy downrange than a bullet with a much lower ballistic coefficient.

It is obvious that a larger diameter bullet will perform better than another provided that velocity is the same.....but.....

....after traveling more than 150 yards...the energy of say...a .375 caliber flat nosed bullet with a much lower ballistic coefficent will lose energy at a higher rate.

The .270 has much more energy at 400 yards than even the hottest loaded 45-70.

neolithic hunter
03-13-2005, 09:12 PM
preiscope ya i was figuring the tables incorrectly. but through personal experance i know the 375 win will work quit well to the 400 yrd mark. the energy figures give you a base number to work from, but the numbers aren't really reflective of what a round can do down range. your example of the 270 having more paper energy doesn't reflect what the round does when it gets there. a good example would be at 500 yrds witch bullet is going to penitrate better the 130 gr or the 405 gr. seeing high terminal energy figures from the book is a good place to start. but still none the less it doesn't always transfer over to flesh and bone targets. hunting to me is a game between me and the animal i usually try to get as close as i can, but that doesn't always occure the way you would want to. i don't rely on a carterege to make up for lack of skill in the woods. a flatshootingthunderboomer will never make up for a hunters lack of famiarlity and just simply using his firearm to it's utmost capabilitie. my 6.5mmx68 with a 150 yard zero will let me hold dead on to right at 400 yrds but hunting with it exclusively would reduce my ability to visualize yardeges to game in the field. this would accutally reduce my ability to be an effective hunter. LOL:cool:

periscope_depth
03-13-2005, 10:27 PM
Again, you would have to be a truly remarkable judge of distance and know your rifle's characteristics totally.

Provided you had a lazer range finder and you had the ballistics of your round printed on the stock of your rifle....there is still a major problem.

YOUR LEVER ACTION RIFLE HAS TO BE CAPABLE OF SUM MOA ACCURACY .....(something totally unheard of with lever action rifles)

AND....you must have a solid shooting position, with a telescopic sight powerful enough to see the target...and the ability to shoot this unusually accurate rifle to within its full capability.

You will never convince me that that .375 Winchester in a Winchester Big Bore lever action rifle is a reliable 400 yard cartridge. If YOU are able to hunt with it out to 400 yards, then indeed, you are the exception to the rule.

Then again....you ought to be winning 1,000 yard shooting contests and/or gunsmithing lever action Winchesters into .5" 100 yard shooters. Then again, you might already be doing both.

klallen
03-14-2005, 12:00 AM
Evening gentlemen. You're conversation here has been kinda entertaining, and on more then one occasion, I thought about posting some thoughts. But held off for one reason or another. Over the last couple posts, I gotta ask a question to each of ya regarding a comment you made.

First, NEOLITHIC :

"my 6.5mmx68 with a 150 yard zero will let me hold dead on to right at 400 yrds"

Praytell, what load are you using to accomplish this? I've tinkered with the hot 6.5's a bit (.264 WinMag). With the high BC of the 120 gr. Ballistic Tip and a 150 yd. zero, even if you get that bullet moving along at 4500 fps at the muzzle, you're still looking at an impact of 8.5" low at 400 yds. Which would put ya well out of the kill zone of antelope, deer and elk, assuming that you are holding dead on, with no hold-over. That said, I've yet to run into a 6.5 caliber cartridge that can break the 3900 fps plateau with a 120 gr. bullet. My .264 WinMag get's that bullet moving along right around 3450 fps with a relatively hot load. With a 150 yd. zero, that puts my bullet over a foot and a quarter low at 400 yds. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the 6.5x68RWS the European equivalent of my .264 WinMag? Something is amiss here. Either you aren't zeroed at 150 yds. to have a dead on hold at 400 ... or ... you have a 150 yd. zero and you're nowhere close to a dead on hold at 400 yds. Or ... you're shooting one heck of a souped up .264 cartridge (this one I disregard). Either way, curious about your load.

Second, PERISCOPE :

"YOUR LEVER ACTION RIFLE HAS TO BE CAPABLE OF SUM MOA ACCURACY .....(something totally unheard of with lever action rifles)"

Come on, now. I understand that when we're talking extreme accuracy, lever action rifles are not typically what we reach for ... BUT ... you do understand that the underlined portion of your statement is completely incorrect, right? It most definitely is heard of. I showed you what my 94AE .307 is capable of in the other string. My father has a Marlin .30-30, that's older then sand, that can average just under MOA at 100. I would wager that there is a huge # of lever action rifles out there that can better MOA accuracy. And with factory ammo. Further, match a custom load up to those rifle that can not with factory stuff, and the # accomplishing this feat would grow substantially. I'm not making a comment on whether lever rifles are capable of 400 yd. shots or should even be used on 400 yd. shots with the energy retained at that distance, HOWEVER, if you're primary requirement for a rifle to succeed at 400 yds. is it has to be able to shoot sub-MOA at 100 yds, well there's any number of lever action rifles that would qualify then.

Take care, fellas. >> klallen

rockinbbar
03-14-2005, 12:44 AM
I too have been watching this thread with interest...and some others that are similar involving caibers, types of guns, etc.
What really stands out is that I see our forums used as a "bashing" tool for certain calibers etc. Now in all fairness, you are entitled to your opinion...
But why come here and pick a fight over a caliber or a gun you don't really care for?

Wouldn't it make better sense to try & be positive about a caliber or a gun that you DO like?
In my opinion, it's just downright "Trollish" to deliberately provoke someone to defend a gun or a caliber that they like & use with success.

The sporting arms industry makes calibers & guns in all denominations for different people. People are different because they have different needs and abilities. There are lots of variations that suit those needs. Pick those you like, but don't bash the ones that others have spent hard earned money on and really enjoy hunting with and shooting.

I have a pretty wide array myself..

Periscope, don't tell my lever-gun (a .243 Savage 99, topped with a Luepold 3-9) that it can't shoot sub-MOA.....you might hurt it's feelings and cause it to group 1 1/4" one day.

As to the lethality of any given cartridge.....Again it is dependant on whom pulls the trigger, as in ALL calibers.

One of the most accurate rifles I ever owned was a Cimarron Mod. 66 rifle. 24" bbl. in 44-40 caliber. That gun came with the ladder type sight that Winchester put on them back when. There is a gunrange near Austin TX that has long range metal cut-outs the long range shooters use. Well, being a 44-40 that 400 yard deer cut out was just too tempting. I adjusted the ladder sight to 400 yards & let one fly.....dust about 6 feet under the target. I raised the sight a hair more and "BING!!"....WOW! Too much fun! I let out a pretty rapid 3 shoot string....I mean I fired ALL 3 shots, & then, after I shot all 3 times, I heard "Bing...Bing..Bing!" Now that was pretty good for the first levergun ever produced that was made avl. to the public at an affordable price...back in 1866, don't ya think?
Sub-MOA? Who knows? It did & does get the job done, though.

Would I shoot at an actual deer at that range with a 44-40...not hardly....BUT if I had knew I had a capable rifle in my hands and in a 45-70, 45-90, 45-120, 38-55, .375 Win. You better believe that it would kill a deer graveyard dead...right there. Deer don't have mystic powers that let them walk away from solid hits....they are pretty easy to kill actually.

As far as 400 yards being something that you claim as next to impossible for the type calibers you refere to on this thread...Well, they DO have competitions for those rifles. I've watched several of them shoot, and brother you wouldn't wanna be standing out at 400 yards with one of those guys looking at you thru the tang sight of thier Sharps, and the set trigger already pulled...;)

My point is, that no matter what caliber you may refere to in a negative way, or what type gun you decide might not be much good, there is SOMEONE out there that will read your posts & get all defensive about it, because these people KNOW what the limitations of thier rifle, caliber, & ability are. And you MIGHT just be surprised at the outcome of that ability.

It is always more productive to post threads about positive aspects of certain calibers, rifles, scopes, or pick-up trucks, than it is to try & tear down or belittle anothers favorite.

Rockinbbar

periscope_depth
07-14-2005, 02:27 PM
I see the ballistics you have included in your post. Very interesting!

I think I intended to compare the factory ballistics of the 30-30 and the .375 Winchester. No doubt, the .375 can be loaded much hotter.

If I purchased a .375 Winchster barrel for my single shot Thompson/Encore, I believe I could load this round to close to .358 Winchster ballistics. Surely there is enough room in the .375 Winchester case for enough 3031 or 4064 to put a nice pace on a 255 grn bullet. The reason for my post was out of frustration. I want a nice lever gun but am not comfortable with the calibers being offered currently. The 30-30 or 35 Remington do not inspire me. The 44 magnum or .357 Magnum does not either. All of these most popular rounds are 100-125 yard rifles at best.

How much effort would it take to strengthen the Model 94 so that it could handle the .257 Roberts or a .308 Winchester? You never see the .307 or the .356 chambered anymore.

Kanibal
07-14-2005, 03:33 PM
I know first hand that the 44 magnum is very effective out to 200 yards even in a pistol in the right hands. I just bought a 44mag pistol a couple months ago and have been practicing just about every other day with it. I have been keeping it in close and working my way out at the recomendation of some friends on THL and I am getting better with it. I always start my work out with a 25 yard target and then move out every week say 25 yards. 100 yards is beans with a 44mag and Im not very practiced out to 200 yet but I have tried it and can hit out that far.

With more practice I feel I could be very proficient with my 44mag out to 200 yards and this is with a 5inch barreled single action pistol. Would I shoot an animal out to 200 yards with my 44mag "pistol"? Of course not!(well maybe a coyote or ground hog) But, I will tell you that there is more than enough energy to take a deer or elk or even black bear with one. If I owned a say Marlin 1894 in 44mag then I would surely shoot game out to 200 yards with it. That would be a very good brush buster for where I live. There are several guys here on THL that I know can hit out to 200 yards with great accuracy with there 44mag pistols. Rockinbbar and Mgardner to name a couple and also Alboy with his 45acp which he proved with pictures on another thread.

neolithic hunter
07-14-2005, 10:31 PM
I see the ballistics you have included in your post. Very interesting!

I think I intended to compare the factory ballistics of the 30-30 and the .375 Winchester. No doubt, the .375 can be loaded much hotter.

How much effort would it take to strengthen the Model 94 so that it could handle the .257 Roberts or a .308 Winchester? You never see the .307 or the .356 chambered anymore.
i believe it would be possible to have a 94 winchester modified to chamber the 51mm and 57mm cases. i'm pretty sure it would be cost prohibitave though. it would be much simpler to find a good savage mod 99 lever gun already chambered for the 308 class rounds. or if you wish marlin makes it's 1895 CB lever gun in 38-55, which is the same case as the 375 winchester, or the 45/70. either round will do a bang up job on deer IMO to 400+ yrds. that is if the shooter does his part. i'm lucky enough to have an 800 yrd range on my property and i have a 16x18 inch gong set up at 600 and 800 yrds. with a little pratice with my 45/70 i can hit the 600 and 800 yrd gong with about 70% reliability. i have shot deer with my 45/70 at a little more than 400 yrds and have yet to have an animal be lost. all hits were in the chest with thru and thru wound channels. i was shooting a 405 gr lead paper patch bullet and 4895 powder. LOL and have fun with your lever gun project.

drinksgin
07-15-2005, 11:50 AM
PD;
I think the Browning BLR was made and may still be made in .35 Whelen, that is a nice , big , long range round and even though the BLR does not look like a Winchester or Marlin, it is a lever action.
They are also made in .358.
Don

periscope_depth
07-19-2005, 01:09 PM
Neolithic_Hunter: I have no doubt that you can hit a target out to 800 yards with your 45-70. The round has been known for exeptional accuracy to long ranges.

What I would submit you CANNOT do accurately is to judge the DISTANCE to your game animal within plus or minus 20 yards EVERY time in dim light, bright light, cloud cover and sunny, from a lower elevation to the deer and from a higher elevation. And even if you CAN....I figure only one in 10,000 hunters CAN.

Truly, the 45-70 is a fine cartridge as is the .375 Winchester. Past 125 yards you really have very, very little room for error in guessing the range and in holding over the animal.

Therefore......for 99.5% of the hunters and for the vast majority of rifle buyers....why would any rifle or cartridge manufacturer waste precious resources in developing a round with the worst of the two rounds?

True enough....the .375 has a bit more energy if you reload for it than the 30-30 but the velocity and miserable bc of the flat 220 grn .375 slug is no better (and perhaps a bit worse) than a good 400 grain .458 caliber bullet.

Rainbow trajectories and > 1,000 ft-lbs energy at game distances out to 225 yards or more does not excite me.

As I said in an earlier post; if all you need is a 100 yard gun....dust off your shotgun and load it with a slug. Better yet, a 44 Magnum lever gun will do you just as well and you won't have to go looking the ends of the earth for factory ammo.

neolithic hunter
07-19-2005, 06:11 PM
Neolithic_Hunter:
What I would submit you CANNOT do accurately is to judge the DISTANCE to your game animal within plus or minus 20 yards EVERY time in dim light, bright light, cloud cover and sunny, from a lower elevation to the deer and from a higher elevation. And even if you CAN....I figure only one in 10,000 hunters CAN.

Truly, the 45-70 is a fine cartridge as is the .375 Winchester. Past 125 yards you really have very, very little room for error in guessing the range and in holding over the animal.

Therefore......for 99.5% of the hunters and for the vast majority of rifle buyers....why would any rifle or cartridge manufacturer waste precious resources in developing a round with the worst of the two rounds?

True enough....the .375 has a bit more energy if you reload for it than the 30-30 but the velocity and miserable bc of the flat 220 grn .375 slug is no better (and perhaps a bit worse) than a good 400 grain .458 caliber bullet.

Rainbow trajectories and > 1,000 ft-lbs energy at game distances out to 225 yards or more does not excite me.

As I said in an earlier post; if all you need is a 100 yard gun....dust off your shotgun and load it with a slug. Better yet, a 44 Magnum lever gun will do you just as well and you won't have to go looking the ends of the earth for factory ammo.
well for nearly 40 yrs i have been hunting and judging distance to animals with a fare amount of accuracy. i have been a highpower rifle shooter off and on for about 30 yrs of that. i was schooled to hunt by my father who emphasized from the begining know your yardages. well i have won more than one bet at judging yardages and being checked with a rangefinder. my 45/70 has a creedmore rear site that is marked and graduated to 1200 yrds i have it marked to 800 but i don't thing i would take that kind of shot. even if i knew i was going to hit the animal where i wanted to. the longest shot i have ever taken on a big game animal was at 785 yrds. one 160 gr 7mm bullet, one 13 point mule deer. i have been retired for about 10 yrs now and i try and hunt at least 100 days of the year. i have seen a lot of game in the field and can judge my yardages better than most. here recently i have decided to see if i can join the 1 mile club with my varmint rifle. as to date my longest shot at a varmint has been at 1457 yrds, but that is still 311 yrds short of my goal. i will keep trying and will no doubt make it, but i just don't know when. i've been shooting a modified remington 700 chambered for .22x55 swed. it has a 28 inch hand cut custom heavy barrel on it. this rifle will shoot 3.175" 5 round groups at 800 yrds but i think it will have to do better if i'm going to connect with a prairie poodle at 1 mile. oh and by the way i dont at this time own a range finder or a gps i feel they take too much skill from the process of the hunt. i hunt for the thrilll of fair chase and don't believe either would add to the experance.

QUOTE:
True enough....the .375 has a bit more energy if you reload for it than the 30-30 but the velocity and miserable bc of the flat 220 grn .375 slug is no better (and perhaps a bit worse) than a good 400 grain .458 caliber bullet

Rainbow trajectories and > 1,000 ft-lbs energy at game distances out to 225 yards or more does not excite me.

well energy on paper is not what kills a game animal. a well placed bullet does. i can gurantee you that at any yardage a well placed big hole is better than a poorly placed small one. the poor bc by the big slow bullets, can be compensated for by practice.

1,000 ft-lbs of energy is a radom number that someone came up with years ago to judge the effectiveness of a given bullet on a big game animal. it is not the holy grail or carved in stone measure of a bullets ability to perform it job on a game animal. if all you use is the energy figure to judge a given round by, your missing out on a lot of fun at the range and in the field.


the reason all of the magnum rounds out today do so well in the sales dept. is that they allow the average or less than average hunter go hunting with less abilities in the field than i had when i was 16 yrs old. i worked as a hunting guide in new mexaco for a number of years, and found that the bigger the gun is that the hunter brings to camp the less ability he has in the field. hell most of these guy's couldn't stalk a t-bone at kroger, much less a game animal.
when i was younger i thought that the big slow bullet theory that elmer keith had was an old mans dream, but over the years i have found most of the slow big bullet theory was in fact correct. i'm in my 50's now and i would bet that if you took a poll of men and women who had been hunting for a number of years you would find that most don't shoot the newest fastest rounds now made. this is with the exception of usinf them special reasons. such as me i do own a 30-378 that i use on the target range. i also own a 7mm rem mag. it hasen't been out of the vault for a number of years. if i want to hunt with a 7mm class round i have been using a 7x57, or my 280.

the last time i was bet that i couldn't judge yardages i was off by 18 feet (thats 6 yrds), still got the boy's c-note. i'm not real good at telling you how far that tree is, but i'm hell with cows, horses, and deer.:cool:

m gardner
07-19-2005, 07:39 PM
I'm beginning to weaken. The more I read this thread the more curious I am about hunting with these these old mid range cartridges. I saw a Winchester 94 Legacy the other day. Twentysix inch barrel. Tang sight. Pretty nice wood. Semipistol grip. Then I made the mistake of picking it up and handling it. I may have to have one in 30-30 or most probably 38-55. Hope my Weatherby doesn't get jealous! God bless and good shooting.

Mark

Kanibal
07-19-2005, 08:55 PM
Next week Im gonna go buy a rifle chambered for 450 Marlin. Its gonna be a Marlin 1895M "Guide Rifle". Im hoping to shoot bear number two of this upcoming season in August with the 450. For all you 45/70 lovers out there asking why not get the Marlin chambered for 45/70? Well I do not reload yet and factory 45/70 catridges are usually underloaded to accomadate the older trapdoor rifles still in use today. The 450 Marlin on the other hand is nothing more than a 45/70 factory loaded to higher pressures and made with a belted case so it cannot be chambered in older 45/70 rifles.

Maybe after I start handloading Ill buy a nice 45/70 chambered rifle to please the 45/70 gods. The 450 Marlin bullet has a muzzle velocity of about 2000FPS out of the 18.5inch barreled gun Ill be shooting. I bring this up because I think it will make a very nice mid range black bear cartridge and Ill let you all know if this is true this coming August. I figure 200 yards as a max range maybe a bit more. Ill have to mess with it a bit.

neolithic hunter
07-20-2005, 09:53 AM
Next week Im gonna go buy a rifle chambered for 450 Marlin. Its gonna be a Marlin 1895M "Guide Rifle". Im hoping to shoot bear number two of this upcoming season in August with the 450. For all you 45/70 lovers out there asking why not get the Marlin chambered for 45/70? Well I do not reload yet and factory 45/70 catridges are usually underloaded to accomadate the older trapdoor rifles still in use today. The 450 Marlin on the other hand is nothing more than a 45/70 factory loaded to higher pressures and made with a belted case so it cannot be chambered in older 45/70 rifles.

Maybe after I start handloading Ill buy a nice 45/70 chambered rifle to please the 45/70 gods. The 450 Marlin bullet has a muzzle velocity of about 2000FPS out of the 18.5inch barreled gun Ill be shooting. I bring this up because I think it will make a very nice mid range black bear cartridge and Ill let you all know if this is true this coming August. I figure 200 yards as a max range maybe a bit more. Ill have to mess with it a bit.
just do me a favor, be sure your wearing your sholder pads. all of the 45 class of rounds can have a bit of recoil. nothing to be scaird of but if your shooting hot handloads after about 30 of them you'll swear your teeth are rattling.:cool:

periscope_depth
07-20-2005, 11:02 AM
Neolithic: I think your last post may have mischaracterized my sentiments about firearms and cartridges or, perhaps I misunderstood you.

I, like you, do no thave much use for the ultra magnums. I truly believe that any game animal in North America can be taken with a hot loaded 35 Whelen or 35 Whelen Improved or a 7x57 Mauser with the right bullets.

Myself, looks like I will trek into the woods with my .260 Rem single shot.

I like the 30-30 and the .45-70. Both are charming and quite effective within their designed ranges. Please, don't go writing me off as one of those 3,500 fps or nothing kinda fans.

MY ONLY POINT WAS SIMPLY: What niche does the .375 Win fill? What advantages does it offer over the very mild 30-30 and the very slow but very hard hitting 45-70? IE...if you want a mild mannered deer rifle....the 30-30 is as good as it gets. If you want a large caliber bruiser in a lever gun...the 45-70 is a good choice. The .375 is mild enough perhaps as weak as the 30-30. The .375 is no where NEAR the bruiser that the 45-70 is.

The 30-30 is a good 150-170 yard deer gun but lacks extra punch.
The 45-70 is maybe a 100-125 yard large game gun. It lacks trajectory.
The .375 Win lacks both extra punch and trajgectory. It has NEITHER.

So.....again, of all of the choices. Of all of the rounds to make or to buy. OF all of the ways to market your rifle or your company....why stake your companies resources with such an ill conceived round?????

As a consumer....as a hunter (not a collector)....why in the world would you push aside the 30-30 or the 35 Remington....or the 444 Marlin or one of the big 45's to select a .375 Winchester?

You want a rainbow trajectory....find a slingshot.

neolithic hunter
07-20-2005, 02:11 PM
basicly your saying what does the 375 winchester do that the 30-30 can't. well for what ever reason the 30-30's that i have shot in 6 to 61/2 lb rifles have a fair amount of recoil, for such a small round. i suppose it has to do with the way the rifles are designed, stock fit and such. well my 38-55 or the 375 win. have a different type of recoil than the 30-30 does. the recoil is more a kin to a shove than a hit. this makes the 375 alot easier on your sholder and quit a bit easier to shoot alot. i only have 2 rifles that have more uncomfortable recoil than my 30-30, a 338 win mag and my 45/70. the felt recoil from the 30-30 of mine and others that i have shot is much worse than my 06 is. i relize that my 06 is in a rifle that weighs about a pound and a half more than my 30-30, but still the 30-30 has more apparent recoil. if you ever have the chance to shoot a 375 win or a 38-55 you'll note the differance. as for your effective ranges they are based on what, bullet drop, paper energy, i know not what. but i do know for a fact that your 30-30, the 375 win, and the 45/70 all have the capability to take game in excess of 300 yrds, with proper bullet placement. a good example is that the 30-30 is considered a 150 yrd round in a 94 win rifle. well in my t/c it is considered a 250 - 300 yard round and thats out of a 14" barreled pistol. this has nothing to do with the ability of the bullet to do it's job. it has to do with the type of sites that are on the given weapon. most saddle type of guns have rudamentry site at best, i know a couple of guys that can do remakale thing with a buckhorn site but not me. all of my saddle guns have peep sites and blade front sites on them. as for the 375 win, it is a round that is capable of taking game at farther ranges than the 30-30, due to bore diameter and bullet weight alone. it is the same for the 45/70. they don't kill by energy alone they use the big hole theory. it has worked in the past and i'm willing to bet with the right skills, a hunter can make it work far into the future.:cool:

as for why the manufacters still make rifle for these old round , it's because they can sell them. the hunting population out there doesn't always relie on new products to do there job for them.

periscope_depth
07-20-2005, 07:59 PM
Heck, give me a magazine full of 30-30 or .375 shells and I feel confident that one out of 6 will find a deer sized target at 300 yards.

Of course I will have to GUESS if the critter is standing at 400, 425 or 350 yards. Most will always over estimate the range (I usually do).

Consider the limitations of your favorite 30-30 or for that matter .375 rifle.

Even if you sight your rifle to hit dead on at 200 yards....if your quary is actually standing at 300 (instead of 200) you will be 20" low. Yeah, you'll be skipping a round into the deer's hooves. Hmmmm?

A 100 yard mistake in judging distance results in a clean miss. If you are off by 50 yards....you could also be looking at either a miss or shooting over the deer. Not sure how many 30-30 Winchester 94's are able to shoot even within 2" MOA stretch that out to 300 yards you are looking at an inherent inaccuracy of 6" even if you are a perfect shot and have the range guessed correctly within 15 yards.

You might be very, very good at both guessing range and have one of the very, very few Model 94's capable of 1 MOA but the last thing you need to consider is punch.

Yep.....that little 150 grn bullet will barely be topping 1,200 fps. You may be right about how over rated ft-lbs are in guessing killing power....but 500
ft-lbs is barely enough to penetrate into the heart/lung area. I suspect that this low velocity may not be enough to cause even a soft point to expand. Heaven forbid you hit a rib or a large ball joint on the way to the chest.

Neolithic.. you might be that one in 10,000 hunter with any business taking 300 yard shots with a .375 Win or a 30-30...but us mere mortals would be foolish at best and idiotic at worst to attempt such an irresponsible shot.

Considering Winchester was not marketing their .375 Winchester for .005% of the deer hunting public....what would motivate a seasoned deer hunter to forsake the mild mannered 30-30 or one of a thousand handy bolt action rifles chambering cartridges like the .243, .257 Roberts, 7-08, .308 Win and 30-06 to handi cap themselves with a round so slow as to be slower than a 45-70, so puny as to not be really a step up from the 30-30 and not nearly the bruising power of the 444 Marlin or the .450 Marlin or 45-70???

You have $400 to spend on a new lever action rifle to hunt whitetails.....give me ONE good reason why the out-moded .375 Winchester should get my hard earned dollars.

We will assume the hunter is someone who does not use radio triangleation to make precise range finding reports.

neolithic hunter
07-20-2005, 11:18 PM
why the 375 winchester should get your hard earned cash? the reason is that if you have to go hunting or to the range more often to stay proficient with your given weapon, i would bet you'd be having fun doing it. go hunting IMO is not sitting in a stand waiting for a animal to walk within range so that i may put a bullet into it. when i say hunting i mean really hunting, you've got to be proficient at stalking and really hunting animals. you have to go to them in there front room and out wit them, when you do, you mite find that you are better at judging ranges in the field than you think you are. just about any round that is manufactured today will cleanly take a big game animal. but shooting deer from a stand and hunting are 2 different things. one requires that you butt doesn't go to sleep, and the other requires skill that is obtained by going out into the woods and learning. i have no dought that you are a good shot with what ever firearm you choose to use. i have noticed that you have an ability to discount your own capabilities.

one of the reasons that you give the 30-30 and other lever guns less capability than a bolt gun seams to come from the weapons siteing system. the bolt guns all wear a scope to help you out. the lever guns on the other hand generlly have buckhorn sites with a 6 to 8 minute bead on them. well with a 6 or 8 minute bead on the front site it would be hard to see a deer at 300 yrds, when your looking down the sites. but if you rifle has a 0.062 or a 0.70 front post being able to see an animal and place a bullet on targt gets a lot easier. i'm pretty much an old guy, i shoot NRA highpower rifes at 200, 300, and 600 yrds at least 3 time a week weather permitting. i have 2 rifles that i prefer one is an m1a, that when it has a scope on it i can shoot an honest 1" group at 300 yrds, with iron site i can shoot 2" to 3" groups all day at 300 yrds. i also have a ar-15 race gun that will shoot on a good day with me and the wind doing our parts, 5" groups at 600 yrds. using iron sites is a specialty that has to be developed over time it is not someting that your born with. i bet with a little practice, well maybe alot, and a good set of sites on your 30-30, you could shoot groups that at this time you can only do with a scoped rifle.

Kanibal
07-21-2005, 02:31 AM
If the hunter does his part lever actions are very capable of sub MOA. I have shot many different lever guns and they for the most part have been great shooters. I shot a 444 of a friends that was shooting 3/4". I think most people would be happy with that kind of group in a scoped bolt action. Go to a cowboy action shoot and tell the guys there that their 38-55's and 45-70's will not produce sub MOA groups.

Also the 375 Win would be a great catridge for any close in hunting and I would not shy at taking 200plus yard shots with one. 200 yards is not all that far. I wouldnt mind using a 375 Win for local black bear in the temperate rainforest that I live in. It would be a great brushbuster and easily take a black bear, elk or deer. The big hole theory does come into play here.

Look at muzzle loaders for example. I know people who take elk, bear, feral hogs and moose with a muzzle loader which is traveling a lot slower with less power than the 375 Win and if your shooting a round ball all you have to work with is the diameter of the ball. Round balls do not expand as much as a conical bullet or hollow point because they were not designed to. They just bore a big tunnel through your game animal. By the way I will shoot out to 200 yards with my 50cal Hawken and have no regrets. It will get the job done at that range and with great success.

periscope_depth
07-21-2005, 02:53 PM
Most of you are trying to de-bunk my comments using the exception (not the rule) to do it with.

Yes, of course there are Model 94's and Model 99 Savages that can shoot MOA. I would suspect many more Savage's could get MOA than Model 94 Winchesters. But then again....I don't think Savage was ever foolish enough to offer the Model 99 in .375 Winchester.

So....I will concede that there are SOME....(a very few) lever action guns that can shoot MOA.

BUT THIS WAS NOT MY POINT.

My point simply was this: What does the .375 Winchester do BETTER than any of the other mild mannered, ulta low pressured lever action rounds can do?

Sure, sure....if a whitetail hunter happens to see a deer standing next to a 300 yard distance marker and you are one of the rare owners of a MOA shooting .375 (with a ballistics table) in your wallet you could hit a deer in the brisket with a .375 Winchester. The flat nosed bullet would barely have the punch to penetrate into the lungs and would hardly have the velocity to mushroom or expand....but the deer would fall over dead after a 150 yard run.

So what????

Again, you are trying to refute my post by the exception and not the rule.

ONLY 1 in 10,000 can make this shot. Only 1 in 1,000 get lucky to have a rifle that can shoot this good. The RANGE estimation is the real challenge. How many of us can tell ACCURATE RANGES at 6:30 AM on a cold, foggy November morning with the rising sun just barely casting enough light to illuminate the profile of a deer some distance out in the middle of a field?

With my .260....I aim dead center on the chest and the bullet drops maybe 3 or 4 inches.

The .375 Winchester......you have to wonder. Is that 250 yards? Maybe 325? could be 375 or even 400 yards?? Is that 270 yards or 265?
Unless you guess within 20 yards....you cleanly miss or you are chasing a wounded deer.

neolithic hunter
07-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Most of you are trying to de-bunk my comments using the exception (not the rule) to do it with.

BUT THIS WAS NOT MY POINT.

My point simply was this: What does the .375 Winchester do BETTER than any of the other mild mannered, ulta low pressured lever action rounds can do?

Sure, sure....if a whitetail hunter happens to see a deer standing next to a 300 yard distance marker and you are one of the rare owners of a MOA shooting .375 (with a ballistics table) in your wallet you could hit a deer in the brisket with a .375 Winchester. The flat nosed bullet would barely have the punch to penetrate into the lungs and would hardly have the velocity to mushroom or expand....but the deer would fall over dead after a 150 yard run.

So what????

Again, you are trying to refute my post by the exception and not the rule.

ONLY 1 in 10,000 can make this shot. Only 1 in 1,000 get lucky to have a rifle that can shoot this good. The RANGE estimation is the real challenge. How many of us can tell ACCURATE RANGES at 6:30 AM on a cold, foggy November morning with the rising sun just barely casting enough light to illuminate the profile of a deer some distance out in the middle of a field?

With my .260....I aim dead center on the chest and the bullet drops maybe 3 or 4 inches.

The .375 Winchester......you have to wonder. Is that 250 yards? Maybe 325? could be 375 or even 400 yards?? Is that 270 yards or 265?
Unless you guess within 20 yards....you cleanly miss or you are chasing a wounded deer.periscope what the 375 win can do that the other rounds can't do is make a bigger hole in it's respective target. it will also out penatrate all with the exception of the 40 and 45 cal rounds. ok 8mm mag, 338 mag, so on and son on.

it is obvious that you have never hunted and taken game with a larger than .308 round.
your basing your argument on incorrect information, that you have recived from some where. at 300 yrds a 375 win will put a bullet thru both sholders of a whitetail deer. i have seen a 38-55 that was shot a quatering elk go through a rib and an off sholder bone to exit the animal, at about 275 yrds. i will admit that the shooter knew his gun and load. :D

i believe, if i can remember this correctly, gen hatches tests on cadavers, and cows yielded the following relults. to penatrate sink on a bovin carcus a bullet had to be travling at approx. 110 fps, to break bone a bullet had to be traveling at 226 fps, this was with a 38 cal lead handgun round and the bones were cow bones. this is not the most efficent bullet out there penatration wise but it is what he used. so at 300 yrds assuming that a 375 rifle bullet was moving 500 fps, this slow it would have more than enough energy to fully penatrate a deer at most angles. and i know for a fact that it is quit a good round in the elk woods. :D

also i don't know how capable you are at judging ranges in the field, but the people i hunt with either can estimate really well or they use range finders. most of them are quit capable of taking game at 200 - 400 yrds with an iron sited rifle, most of them have taken game at over 150 yrs with a iron sited pistol. so 1 in 10,000 is a bucket with a hole in it, it don't hold water.:D

i will admit if you use a 260 remington on deer all you have to do is put you crosshairs on the critter and pull the trigger. what would happen if you didn't have the scope to help you see. would you still be able to shoot an animal at the 200-300 yrds that you can with a scope. out past 300 yrds judging the range is really important fir the older slower rounds, if you are off by 20 yrds in most cases you will shoot under your quarry, yup a clean miss. this is where hunting, real hunting comes into play. if you see a deer of a life time, at lets assume it's at over 350 yrds and you think it is really to far away to be shooting your trusty 375 winchester, what do you do. well in a nutshell you either pass on the shot, and say well maybe next time, or go after him. it's called hunting game, not shooting game.:)
if it's really cold and kind of foggy early in the morning, i still would go for it, inclimate conditions have never stopped me from ridding my motorcycle, so why would it pose any real problem in the woods. :D

i'm not trying to give you a hard time but you keep going back to the same issue. how far the critter is from you. if it is too far for you, get closer, if you are having trouble seeing, the game needs to be closer. if you think that the 30-30, 270, or 260 are the perfect deer rounds then more power to you, sit in your stand and enjoy. just don't discount other peoples abilities because you can't do something. me and probably a few other old farts out there go hunting, to hunt, not sit in a stand and whack deer with the biggest and most powerful rifles we own. :cool:

periscope_depth
07-22-2005, 04:25 AM
Chucking spears and slingshots used to work pretty good 3500 years ago.

Theoretically, it is possible to throw a spear and make a killing shot at a deer. If you are very proficient and use a large enough stone....a 200 yard kill can be made with a sling and a rock.

Setting snares and using poison darts work as well. I knew of a Bushman who made a killing shot at a monkey with a tiny poison tipped dart to 50 yards.

You could blend into the deer's environment and ambush a whitetail with a large knife....or even a sharpened stone.

Afterall.....we are going hunting. To do it right there must be a significant challenge.

I say, find the most inferior weapon that you are most proficient at and have a go of it.

Winchester must have thought there was a market for hunters looking for rounds that were most challenging to work with. I hear that they can't keep a good .375 Winchester on the shelf as many would be "shooters" would rather work three times as hard at "hunting" to bring venison home for the freezer. Truth be told...the .375 Winchester as very UN-popular.

I am not saying that people can't hunt with slingshots, poison darts or even make mile long hits with a 45-70 on Cape Buffalo. Heck, I am sure the .22 LR has been used successfully by someone somewhere to take every big game animal on earth.

I was not trying to sound critical of those who love the slow big bores.

You sound like a truely gifted outdoorsman with skills a Marine Sniper would be jealous of.

Please...knock yourself out with a .375 Winchester. It is a capable of killing deer.

Just that there are SO MANY better rounds out there to choose from and so many better rounds that Winchester could have developed. Not to sell to 1,000 yard marksman like yourself...but to regular sloppy "Joe's" like me.

True enough...a day in the woods is a joy by itself deer or no deer...but when I see one, I don't want to have to be a 20 year veteran of the foreign legion with a ballistics calculator for a brain and a range finder with a telescope in my pocket to have a chance at connecting with one. Call me an unsporting high powered rifle blaster if you'd like.

Why can't Winchster come out with a flatter shooting round than the 30-30 for the Standard Model 94?

neolithic hunter
07-22-2005, 10:51 AM
winchester does make a lever gun with more *** than a 30-30. they have a lever gun chambered in 270, and 30.06. there kind pf pricey when compared to the 94 but what the hay. if your going to play with the big boys you have to pay like the big boys.:cool:

M1Garand
07-22-2005, 11:57 AM
i've been shooting a modified remington 700 chambered for .22x55 swed. it has a 28 inch hand cut custom heavy barrel on it. this rifle will shoot 3.175" 5 round groups at 800 yrds Not to be disrespectful but I am skeptical. Is this a group you shot or the rifle shot while in a gun vice? If so, you are an amazing shot as the world record by Kyle Brown at 1000 yards is a 4.2278" 10 shot group and this appears to be on par or darn near it.

I see both sides of this and I am a fan of older rounds and big bores. As I believe was already stated you must know the rounds' limitations and stay within them. Sure an experienced shooter or hunter can push these limits but there is a point where it can be pushed only so far to be effective.

I see rounds that were never popular as part of the evolution of firearms. Even though we may see them as a redundant, it's still part of that. If this didn't occur, we'd probably still be using kentucky rifles and called it good. Heck look at new rounds today and I could name probably 5 300 mags that do nothing the other doesn't but some such as the short mags may be the next advancement to get similar performance in a smaller package.

at 300 yrds assuming that a 375 rifle bullet was moving 500 fps, this slow it would have more than enough energy to fully penatrate a deer at most angles......at 300 yrds a 375 win will put a bullet thru both sholders of a whitetail deer. While I won't argue this as I've never shot a 375, I looked at the round in all my reloading manuals and the max muzzle velocities listed for it in 3 of my manuals and through my ballistic software are:

Hornady, 220 gr 2200 fps
Sierra, 200 gr 2250
Speer, 235 gr 2067 fps

At 300 yards the the velocities and energies are:

Hornady, 220 gr 1276 fps/795 fpe
Sierra, 200 gr 1321/775 fpe
Speer, 235 gr 1418 fps/1049 fpe

At 500:

Hornady, 220 gr 985 fps/474 fpe
Sierra, 200 gr 1029/470 fpe
Speer, 235 gr 1127 fps/663 fpe

With a 100 yard zero, each drops:

at 300 yards:

Hornady, 220 gr 32"
Sierra, 200 gr 25"
Speer, 235 gr 31"

at 500 yards:

Hornady, 220 gr 151"
Sierra, 200 gr 143"
Speer, 235 gr 132"

At 300 yards, IMO, the round is borderline and you'll have to know the round and be a heck of a good estimator of distance to even hit a deer at that range. At 500 I'd say it's an inadequate round with not only the energy but the trajectory. Also will the bullet perform as is should at these velocities for a clean kill? Keep in mind these bullets may also be used in a 375 H&H magnum and have to be heavier constructed to perform at velocities several hundred fps faster than the 375 Win is capable so once they travel much slower, they may not musroom and a .375" hole through and though isn't mush when you consider that even a .270 Win will expand to .550 to .650 depending on the bullet.

periscope_depth
07-22-2005, 02:18 PM
Well said M1Garand:

Honestly....I think the little .375 Winchester is rather quaint and a bit odd. If the wood looked good and I could easily find brass and reloading dies...I might enjoy plinking with it or take it to one of my deer stands where I know the longest (likely) shot would be less than 100 yards. As a gun enthusiast....I wouldn't mind having one if I had the cash and the cost wasn't stupid high.

Neolithic really does sound like a worlds record champion target shooter. I wonder if he ever rubbed shoulders with Elmer Keith or Marshall Dillion for that matter? (Kidding). People who can routinely make off-hand accurate 1,000 shots with the really slow Big Bores I believe have more natural talent than Tiger Woods and are truely a rare breed.

I would enjoy watching you at the range one day, Neolithic....but more than that....watching you rove around the farm taking aim at targets from 200 to 800 yards away...some the size of dinner plates the others the size of tea cups would be a priviledge. My gosh, the sights of an old 45-70 would completly cover 15 yard patch of grass the target would be on and you would hit it everytime. WOW!

I'd promise not to take you up on any suckers bets.

drinksgin
07-22-2005, 06:40 PM
PD;
The .375 is a standard die set at Lee, once fired .30-30 cases are abour $20 for 500, prime it, put some bullseye or unique in, fill with corn meal and pull the trigger, instant .375 case.!
Don
;D

centurion
04-29-2012, 09:04 PM
Hi, i know this thread is old, but i was searching the internet for info on the 375win and i came across this thread. I do not know if a lot of the original posters are still on the site but i wanted to address Periscope depth on many points he has made.

Number one, since the 375win is based on the 30-30 case blown out to 375 caliber its not going to have a lot more energy than a 30-30, but it is not energy that kills an animal, destroying its major organs or breaking down the skeletal structure is what puts em on the ground quickly.

Number two, most deer are shot within 100yds and in thick brushy areas, having a bigger bullet means more blood on the ground and quicker incapacitation of the animal for better tracking in the thick stuff.

Number three, there are lever action rifles like the savage 99(and yes Savage did offer the 99 in 375winchester) winchester 88 and Browing BLR who offered or are still offering rifles in .308 win, 243win, and even the .257 roberts at one time. The big bore offerings in the 94's and Marlin 375 were limited by the design and weaknesses of the action. The Marlin 375 has a flat top receiver, side ejection, and is drilled and tapped for a scope, so i see it as a much better application for the 375win.

Number four, BC , boat tail bullets only matter if shooting past 300yds and usually much farther, its a bunch of marketing hype, 99.9 % of hunters have no right in shooting past 250yds unless they practice at long range and even then the chances of errant wind gust or the animal moving make it unethical to shoot that far. This year i shot my best buck ever, a 9 point with an 18.5" inside spread at a whopping 40yds! My Model 7 in 7mm SAUM was not needed for such a short shot and a 375win would have been perfect.

In a nut shell, the big bores were invented to refresh the Winchester 94 platform, to offer something different to hunters. Most people who use the 30-30 or 35rem are traditionalist who wont change unless something is broken, lets face it, the old stand byes have been working for more than 100 years so why buy into something new?

Just for the record, i have a 94 in 44mag, a 99 in 250 savage, a BLR in .358 win, and a 375 Marlin in 375 win and i wouldnt sell any of em, they all work within their design parameters and work well. Have a good one and God Bless.....

drinksgin
04-29-2012, 09:14 PM
Howdy, have fun here.