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sav17
02-20-2005, 05:27 PM
there has been a lot of speculation about the suitability and the ethics of using 17hmr for fox here is my side of the debate I took this one this morning at 90 yards with a head shot .Up until now I have used it mostly for rabbits and squirrel but I got this opportunity and took it,it was a clear shot,the weather was cold but the sun was shining and he was laying out in full view getting some sun,he didnt flinch just rolled over.The last thing I want to do is reopen the old can of worms but so many comments have been made about this little calibre I just thought you might like to see my pictures:D
cheers............Richie

Daryl (deceased)
02-20-2005, 06:00 PM
Congrat's Richie!

I think that the .17 hmr may be just about perfect for foxes, and it seems to me that anything much bigger than a .22 mag or .22 Hornet tend to blow them up a little to much.

The debate that I remember was more along the lines of the suitability of the .17 HMR for coyotes, which are somewhat larger than a fox.

Nice shooting, and again..Congratulations!!

Daryl

sav17
02-20-2005, 06:08 PM
:D
Thanks daryl,
I didnt mean the comments necasserily came from this site I meant in general although someone did comment that the 17 wasnt capable of taking a racoon.As I said all I really wanted to do was to show you my photos:D
cheers........... richie
I really wish I could spell necassarily:o

gitano
02-20-2005, 06:47 PM
Great shot Sav17, and thanks for posting pics. Good ones too I might add.

While I own a .17 HMR, I'm not a big fan. For me, the 17 HMR is in exactly the same class as a .22 LR when it comes to foxes. I'd use a .22 LR on a fox in a minute if it was under 100 yds - ditto for the 17 HMR. If I had an oportunity to shoot one while it was resting, and I could make a head-shot, you bet I'd take it.

I don't think you'll gin too much controvery with that post, ;) and the pics are well-appreciated.

Paul

Daryl (deceased)
02-20-2005, 06:48 PM
necessarily

;)

Daryl

rockinbbar
02-20-2005, 07:16 PM
Good job!

You plan on tanning the fur, or a mount of some sort? Ought be a nice one!

Rockin'

Gmoney
02-20-2005, 09:52 PM
That is a gorgous looking fox....if you have a good shot and know your rifle well I guess you could take a fox with an HMR.....lol...just stick to head shots and they'll roll everytime.....nice shootin'

gitano
02-20-2005, 11:31 PM
I was looking at the pics again, and it appears you might have a suppressor on that rifle. Izzat so?

Paul

Brithunter
02-21-2005, 01:11 AM
Hi Gitano,

As it seems Richie is probably in bed ( if he has any sense at this ungodly hour) I will answer your question. yes his rifle is fitted with a sound modrator which is quite normal here in the UK for rifles used on pest control, Richie is also just venturing into another realm of hunting. That of Deer stalking and is just awaiting the Police to vary his licence to pick up a .243". We have been discussing it by PM:D

I have only shot one fox with the .22 Rimfire and it ran and I had to folow up for a second shot, that was a young dog fox, I was using HP sub sonic Winchester ammo. Perhaps the high velocity ammunition would have been better to use but as I was rabbiting at the time:rolleyes:

Nice shot Richie and very good photos as well, that's a good sized Fox, a dog by any chance?

gitano
02-21-2005, 10:56 AM
BH,

Yup, I was aware that supressors are commonplace (maybe even required? occassionally) in Europe. As you know, if you even think about wanting one in the US you're considered a poacher (at best) or more likely a cop-killer or terrorist. I'm keenly interested in them, (and none of the above), and would like to know more about the ones used 'over there'. Like:

What's the normal cost?
How are they commonly attached?
Are you permitted to put them on and take them off at your leisure - both technically and legally?
Are they always used with subsonic loadings? (Wouldn't appear so with the .17 HMR).
Are there a wide variety to choose from?
What are the pros and cons of ownerhip and using?
Are they a hassle to clean?
Are they licensed separately as they are here in the US?
Can you get them repaired without having to get a new license? (Unlike here in the US.)

As you can see, there is a great deal of ignorance (at least on my part) about them.

Paul

Brithunter
02-21-2005, 03:29 PM
Hi Gitano,

Oh boy you don't want to know much do you:rolleyes: the types/styles and makes of Sound Moderators available in the Uk are many. I only have the one on my BSA Supersport Five .22 R/F, it's made from alloy, blacked with no makers name on it. This makes it easier as yes they are licenced and are entered onto you certificate with the desription and serial number, as mine has neither it's entered as no name no maker visable:D this type has as eries of cone shaped baffles which can be removed for cleaning, Rimfires are not the cleanest of rifles as you are well aware no doubt:confused: It's attached by a 1/2" UNF thread direct to the Muzzle and yes it may be removed for any reason legally I can also shoot the rifle with out should I so wish:D the barrel was shortened to 16 1/2" before it was threaded to make it more managable in length, the moderator is 7" long and cost me about 20 if I remember correctly. Parker-Hale made a steel one with removable baffles as well.

Now yes they can be used with any ammunition but best results on noise reduction is of course with sub sonics, but using high velocity ammunition it's still effective as it hides the blast from the muzzle and diffuses it. The diffusion is called the Cone of Confusion according to the experts, the quarry althogu hearing the sound does not know where it came from to where to run to for safety. if you missed or got one down and needed/wanted to drop another then you have the chance to get the second shot:D

Were you aware that Sako made a moderated .303 Forrester model with a full length moderator fitted to the barrel which came back over the barrel to the reciever ring. I have seen exactly one of these and I did think about getting it but dithered to long and it was sold. Interestingly they are treated as a normal rifle and the moderator is part of the rifle and non detachable;) This was before full bore moderatrs were acceptable, the Police hated them and refused to grant variations for them. That was until a few claims against the Forrestry Commision from some of their stalkers ( Deer Control Officers using 270 Win Rifles) for hearing damage and loss. The Health & Safety Executive took up the matter and it's now considered a good idea to have sound moderators for hearing protection and to reduce Noise Pollution:p .

Full bore sound moderators of course are made much stronger and larger to cope wiht the larger volumes of gas generated by the cartridges. Magnum ones are also available but the price is getting up there now. By law certain types of moderators require proofing after fitting others do not depending upon their design features. There are even one or two that require no cleaning. I just sorted out a Gunmart magazine form last June, sorry I don't have a more up to date one From Finland we have BR Reflex Suppressors :-

T4 (4 baffel) rifles up to 30-06 weight 580 g 189
T8 (8 baffel) rifles up to 30-06 weight 670 g 199
T4-AR rifles up to .223 Rem weight 410 g 189
T8-AR rifles up to .223 Rem weight 490 g 199
T8-SSR Stery scout rifles up to .308 Win weight 590 g 199
T8-MAG Magnum rifles weight 690 g 209

These are welded steel parkerised and require no cleaning other than a spray with WD40 for light oiling.


ASE ULTRA make a jet-Z centre-fire suppressor which can be used on a 338 Lapua Magnum rifle, weight is 480 grams and it adds 4" length to the rifle. They claim a reduction of -32dB on the .338 lapua mag, the suppressor is 190mm long by 45mm in diameter and costs 395, lesser cartridges use a slightly smaller 40mm diameter one.

Hope that helps some;)

calestus
02-21-2005, 05:25 PM
Thats a nice fox. On another note I think it's unfair how easy it is to get sound moderators in the UK. Here in the US we have to jump threw 42 flaming hoops with hungry lions, tigers, and bears at every other hoop.

sav17
02-21-2005, 06:18 PM
Hi all I think brithunter answered most of the questions related to sound moderators,the one you see on my 17 is made by S.A.K and is suitable for both 17 and 22 rimfire it is quite easy to clean you just unscrew three grub screws and the outer tube slides off leaving you with what looks like a cylindrical billet of alloy with holes drilled in it at 90 degrees to the centre,I also have a parker hale unit which is steel and you unscrew an end cap and it contains a stack of what look like shakeproof washers you get a metal rod with it to align them when you reassemble the unit,with subsonic ammunition all you hear is the click of the rifles action,both these sound moderators cost me under 30 pounds,I will strip them both if you like and post photos to give you a better idea,

there was a lot of resistance in this country initially to the mods,as long as you are prepared to add it to your certificate there is not much of a problem.The main reason stated when applying for mods now is personal hearing protection brought about by the forest workers case to the health and safety executive as my friend brithunter has said.So if maybe a few american hunters got together and made a few waves about hearing damage you might get somewhere.
The fox was in very good condition a young male looking at the general condition well fed good coat and teeth most probably one of last years cubs,only took the tail on this one because I dont know of any local taxidermists I would have loved to have had the head mounted but at least I have the photographs;)
Oh and thanks for the help with the spelling I am generally pretty good but that one always
eludes me:D
The other thing is, what I would like you all to under stand I am fairly new to live action rifles,spent most of my hunting life using air rifles so when I first came across the 17hmr I was well impressed now I have progressed to a 223 rem and wiil very shortly be getting hold of a 243 win my views may change,but as one of the farms I hunt on is only passed for rimfire or air rifle the 17 does the job really well you see the largest predator we have is the red fox OK we also have the badger but they are protected so dont come into the equation
Get the mod photos sorted for you and post them here tommorow night
Thank you all for making a beginner feel really welcome,hopefully before long I will be posting a pic of my first deer with the 243
thanks again your friend.................Richie;)

gitano
02-22-2005, 11:07 AM
Thanks to both of you for the info. Sav17, you bet I'd like to see close-ups of the suppressor. Disassembled would be great too.

Unfortunately, there's absolutely NO hope of garnering support in the US from the shooting community. All law enforcement agencies have exactly the same attitude the world over, and in the US they are enthusiastically supported by an ignorant and misinformed shooting public. There is a real paranoia here that supports the concept that ANYTHING, even if only a perception, that MIGHT give the Antis fuel, is BAD. The obvious failure of that logic notwithstanding. Furthermore, those that actually manufacture suppressors are taking full advantage of the "I'm cool because I have a suppressor" mindset, and I don't think (but I could be wrong), there's one available in the US for less than $600 - maybe no less than $800.

They CAN be had here, but getting one is well described by calestus, In addition, you have to get a special license at a $200 cost, plus (at least in Alaska), you have to get "permission" from the local Law Enforcement Officer. They can't refuse the request if you're legally "clean", but you can bet you life that you will ALWAYS be on their "radar". For the time being, way too much associated garbage for my tastes.

The irony in this situation is amazing. In the UK, where "Gun Control" is no less than draconian compared to the US, suppressors are considered "necessary" for the public's health. In the US, with our supposedly "liberal" gun laws, suppressors and the people that use (or even want them for that matter), are considered "suspicious" at best, "evil" mostly.

As you can see, I have only a passing interest in suppressors. :D

Paul

sav17
02-22-2005, 04:43 PM
Ok here are the sound moderator pics;)
The top 2 shots show the p/hale the slimmer one and the S.A.K the rod you see under the p/hale is supplied with the mod to aid in realigning the washers on reassembly they also show the detail of the barrel threading,these two are suitable only for rimfire rifles the centre fire units are much larger.
the next two pics show them stripped for cleaning ,and the last shows the build up after just 25 rounds of 17 hmr.The sak is very easy to strip and clean whereas the p/hale can be a little fiddly,I just wash them out with a small amount of WD 40 which seems to do the trick

gitano
02-22-2005, 04:47 PM
Thanks, that's very cool. Is the bottom picture of the dirty "guts" after shooting?

Paul

sav17
02-22-2005, 04:59 PM
Hi paul just edited in the explanation I was still working on the posting when you read it,sorry:o

cheers .....Richie

sav17
02-23-2005, 03:20 PM
Hi Kev, this is the drawing that mervyn gave me to study:o

Brithunter
02-23-2005, 04:10 PM
Hi Richie,

Yes that's a good one of the Roe Deer:D if you think back to my recent PM. You will see what I mean but the shot I try to take like I did on the last Doe, it about lines up with the group of 4 large blood vessels at the top of the heart and then takes out the lungs which are just below this junction at there lowest point, should you misjudge and go slightly high with the shot you get the lungs and slightly low you drop into the heart proper left and right will get the lungs still one way and the shoulder and front of the lungs the other. Good luck wit hthem:D

sav17
02-23-2005, 04:25 PM
Hi KEV,

Yes I can see now how that area gives you a higher success rate and also a much larger margin of error,anywhere within a 4 to 5 inch circle there should provide a lethal shot. I have just been looking at another web site called UK Deer it is very informative deals with the six species we have,need to learn as much as I can about them now if I am to be successful:o ,also been checking out steiner binoculars,they seem quite impressive
cheers.....Richie