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Rohann
01-18-2005, 06:52 PM
Hey all,
I'm trying to put together a rifle with the precision of an LE rifle, but with the durability and dependability of a Military rifle. Any ideas on how to achieve this? (stock ideas, scope ideas, etc.)

-Rohann

kombi1976
01-18-2005, 10:58 PM
Interesting challenge but I've got to ask a question before I can give you answer.

What is a LE rifle?

Shotgunhemi
01-18-2005, 11:22 PM
Im guessing Lee Enfield? Whoops, my mistake. A Lee Enfield is a military rifle:o

Lost Hunta
01-18-2005, 11:24 PM
im thinking Law Enforcement

Shotgunhemi
01-18-2005, 11:32 PM
Rohann, I thought you wanted to buy a Savage 10fp in .308?

Rohann
01-18-2005, 11:55 PM
Oh sorry,
Yes a LE rifle is a Law-Enforcement rifle. I'm trying to build a rifle with Military and Law-Enforcement traits.
Here is some info copied directly from http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn00-e.htm:

Military sniper rifles used by different military units. Along with main requirements for accuracy and sufficient effective range, military use commands some other: military sniper rifle must not be too heavy, because sniper usually must carry it for the long hours, with ammunition and other stuff. Also, military sniper rifle must be extremely reliable in any weather and climatic conditions and could withstand hundreds of rounds fired without cleaning and maintenance and without any loss of accuracy. Third, military sniper rifle must be easy to fieldstrip and easy to repair in field conditions. Also, military sniper rifle often must have backup iron sights, in case of telescope breackage.
Another requrement is that military sniper rifle must use military ammunition, conforming to international war threaties and generally available to the troops. In most cases, military sniper rifle use variants of the standart caliber army cartridges (such as 7.62mm NATO or 7.62x54mm R), specially developed for sniping.
Effective range for the standart-caliber sniper rifles against the single human-sized target may be estimated as 700-800 meters for first-shot kills. To extend effective range beyond 1000 meters, often used sniper rifles, designed to fire more powerful ammunition, such as .300 Winchester magnum (7.62x67mm) or .338 Lapua magnum (8.6x70mm).
Military sniper rifles may be further separated in two tactically diffrent categories: the sniper rifles itself, designed to achieve aimed hits at long distances, and the Designated Marksman Rifles (DMR), designed to provide accurate fire support for line troops. While the "true" sniper rifles usually are bolt action ones, to achieve maximum accuracy, the DMRs usually are semi-autos, such as Russian SVD or German G3ZF or MSG-90, to gain higher rate of fire. But the difference lays more in tactical applianses, than in the rifles itself.
Police / Law Enforcement (LE) sniper rifles are somewhat another kind of tools. If in most military/war scenarios wounded enemy is equivalent to killed enemy, or even better, in LE and counter-terror (CT) scenarios wounded criminal or terrorist may lead to many innocent victims. Sometimes, the LE or CT sniper must not only kill the terrorist, but hit the particular part of the body - head, or hand, holding the gun, etc. So, in general, LE and CT sniper rifles require more accuracy, but at shorter distances. The majority of LE or CT scenarios require precision shooting at the distances lesser that 300, or even 100 meters. These scenarios also require really few shots per scenario - sometimes one and the only one shot. This also require extreme accuracy and stability of results in any weather conditions. LE and CT snipers also has no limitations on caliber and ammunition selection, so they could select almost any caliber/cartridge they department want, or can afford.
Usually, LE/CT sniper rifles had completely ajustable stocks to suit snipers of different statute, sometimes they got half-of-dozen ajustable screws. This is absolutely unsuitable for military sniper rifles, but for LE sniper rifles, which are usually carried to the point of action in special cases, this is OK.
Many USA made LE sniper rifles are built on the hunting "varmint" rifles. Varmint rifles are small or medium caliber hunting rifles, designed to kill small pests, such as squirrels, rabbits etc., at extended distances. Some LE sniper rifles, such as Remington 700 Police, are simply Remington 700VS varmint hunting rifle barreled actions, bedded into sniper-style stocks.
In Europe, some sniper rifles built on sniper rifles (such as Mauser 66, SIG-Sauer SSG2000, Blaser R93 Tactical), and some built on hunting rifles (such as Steyr Scout Tactical). LE/CT sniper rifles use many kinds of ammunition, from .22LR for training and short-range sniping, to .308 Win, 6.5x55mm, .300 Win magnum etc.

kombi1976
01-19-2005, 02:11 AM
Well, you've picked yourself a doosie, Rohann.
There are some seriously conflicting requirements in some places.
Exactly what have you decided on?
Is this in addition to the Savage 10fp?

Without answers to those questions here's a couple of suggestions for the optics.
Why not set up a system that uses a 4-12x scope with QD mounts and fold down ghost ring to be used for open sights.
Steyr's tactical elite uses this.

Rohann
01-19-2005, 07:18 PM
Thanks Kombi, sounds like a aood setup to me. What kind of scope are you thinking of? Do you think you could give me some more info on the ring type and sights?
Yes I plan on buying the 10FP, but I want to upgrade it over time to make it a blend of these two types of rifle.

-Rohann

kombi1976
01-19-2005, 07:39 PM
Well, Warne make QD mounts and rings so there's a start.
As far as a scope goes, it all depends on how much you want to spend.
If you really want that military look you could get high mount rings.

Look, I haven't recommended this to anyone and I'm pretty sure it'll be a long while before I do so again, but have you thought about looking into getting one of the military style semi-autos that are designed as DMR?
You seem to want a rifle that looks military, performs military and will be super accurate.
In light of that, if Canadian legislation allows it, have you thought about picking up a DMR in 7.62 NATO?
Then you can customise it with stuff like claw mount scopes and other gear.
You can still use it for hunting and the like but have your cake and eat it.

Please if someone has a better idea feel free to suggest it.
It just appears that it's like re-inventing the wheel.

Rohann
01-19-2005, 08:57 PM
Oh I'm sure I'll pick up a DMR sometime along the way, but I have decided on the Savage 10FP (unless convinced otherwise). It is an LE rifle, but I would like to customize it and build it up a bit to make it more of a Military rifle. In short, the accuracy and precision of an LE rifle, but the durability and ruggedness of a Military rifle.

Also, could you explain the rings and mounts?

Thanks,
-Rohann

kombi1976
01-20-2005, 01:05 AM
Well, QD stands for Quick Detachable and used with the correct set up allows you to use any open sights you may have as well.
Or you can swap between a high power scope in one set of QD rings and say a red dot sight in another set without having to re-zero the rifle.

What I meant by high mount rings is that rings come in different heights to allow for different applications.
For instance, some rifles require the scope to be mounted high to clear the safety or hammer.
In other cases some shooters prefer a high mounted scope, even though a low mounted scope is arguably more accurate.
If you look at the current stock of service rifles though, like the Steyr AUG the Australian Army uses, they generally have a clamp-on high mounted 2.5x power scope(or similarly low) that works in tandem with a night vision device.

Rohann
01-22-2005, 03:37 PM
Oh ok thanks. Yeah QD sounds like a good plan, but how sturdy are they? Will they keep your scope zeroed? How much do they cost?
My rifle doesn't come with iron sights, but I could get them installed?
I think I may also get high mounts, depending on the size of the objective lens and the power of the scope (so I won't bash my knuckles with Savage's 90 degree bolt lift).

I'm a bit confused now about the stock. I want to get a stock like on the SSG-3000 (without the detachable mag section though), but I can't figure out which one I'm going to get if I order the rifle with an "SSG" stock though.
See now this is the stock off the McMillan site; the SSG P1 stock that I am looking at buying, but I think it's supposed to be the stock off the Steyr SSG; though it looks nothing like the Steyr SSG's stock.
http://mcmfamily.com/mfsinc_n/images/SSG_P1.gif
This is the SSG-3000 stock, apparently a McMillan Tactical stock, which is shown on the Sauer site as well:
http://remtek.com/arms/sig/ssg3000/ssg3k.gif
Though I found this picture of the "SSG-3000" with a completely different stock, and this is the one I was looking at buying (found on the "Sig Arms" site). It was also featured on "Behind Enemy Lines":
http://www.sigarms.com/img/pic_lem_sauer_ssg3000.gif
Now I don't think I'd want to get the hollow stock as much as this one, but could any of you help me out a bit?
Thanks a bunch,
-Rohann

Lost Hunta
01-22-2005, 04:56 PM
well as far as QD rings go the American Rifleman guys like em' the last i saw they used them on a Weaver for evaluation and sure enough even after the rigours scope treatement (with rings still) the scope stayed zeroed. Not sure what make but i'd bet Leupold.

beretta96
01-23-2005, 12:29 AM
This is an interesting question. what your looking for is a tactical/sniper system to build on a Savage. I would like to bet you won't find most of the parts your looking for to fit that gun. Most tactical rifles are built on the rem 700 or win 70 action. The reason for this is these actions are very easy to "true" up. That means square up locking lugs and square the bolt face. Not many, if any , custom guns are built on a sav. Now I got no beefs with savage, but you may want to go with a 700 for avalibility of parts. Then your possibilties would be endless. Stocks triggers detachable mags, bolt handles, titanium firing pins, springs & a whole bunch of other gadgets are readily avail from many manuf. The next ? is why don't you buy a custom rifle? By the time you stick all that time/money into this one you could have bought an h-s or a FN. Buy the savage and shoot it, and save your money to buy one of these. Im looking at the Sako trg or the Accuracy Int. About$4000 for one of these. The next thing is resale value. An h-s will still be worth the money in 5yrs whereas your savage no matter how cool it looks is still a savage. To prove my point, I recently had a 243wssm built on a 700 action. $529 for the gun, $600 for tyhe Kreiger barrel, 200 tu install barrel, open bolt face, and square action, 100 for sako extractor, 200 jewel trigger, 50 to open stock to accept barrel. I got 400 in labor that I won't get back. A 2500 h-s is still 2500. Just a thought. As far as the QD rings, I own 5 sets of leupold QRWs. They will fit on any weaver rail. They are nice cuz you can have three scopes for the same rifle. I have two for my 243wssm. A zeiss 2.5-10x ill for coyotes at night & a Leu 6.5-20x LRT for day & target shooting. One more ? what are you looking to do with this rifle? Are you looking for a long range target rifle or for the "ooooo & aaaaahhhhh" factor when you pull it out of the case?

Lost Hunta
01-23-2005, 12:36 AM
kinda odd aint it? you'd think a fine gun like the Savage would have lots of options, but i suppose the 700/70 had Vietnam and beyond to gain glory that and today's M-24/40 are M700's. I'd havta say go with the 700 and match things to the Marine's M40A1 which is a sniper's dream rifle. may cost more but it's your best option i guess. not sure which 700 they use but any i suppose would work, why spend more on a BDL if your just gonna get rid of it anyway.

Rohann
01-23-2005, 01:26 AM
That's an interesting point. I'm not sure how far I'd want to go with this rifle, but I'm not sure that I'd want to replace every part on it.
A rough estimate of what the cost (when I am nearly finished building it) will be is about $2000 Canadian, maybe more maybe less. I'm thinking I'll have to spend much more if I base it off a rifle without an outstanding trigger and without a heavy, accurate barrel.
Any recommendations or advice?

Beretta-I am looking for a LE/Military rifle blend. I am looking to base it slightly off the Sig SSG-3000. I want a rifle with pin-point accuracy, but that is almost as durable and rugged as a military rifle. I'm not really going for looks on this rifle, but I would like the SSG stock. I would like it to resemble the SSG and have similar parts.
I support Savage, and it seems that their rifles are reasonably well made, as they are used as tactical rifles by police. According to a few sites I found, they are quite highly recommended as a tactical rifle to people who don't want to/can't spend $5000 on a rifle.

Thanks,
-Rohann

P.S: Could anyone give me the info on the SSG stock?

beretta96
01-24-2005, 04:35 PM
I talked with a buddy today about your project. He told me the stock is made by mcmillan and can be ordered from them and inletted the way want (for your sav) It will probably cost some money thouigh to have this done. He also asked me why would somone put so much money in a sav??? I said I didn't know. I saw a sav something on gunsamerica.com that had some of the features your looking for. It was around $600 us dollars. I believe it was in the tactical/sniper heading. My friend also told me he just bought an ssg3000 on gun broker for 2300. It has a springfield scope on it. So for around what you want to spend you can get one of these.

beretta96
01-24-2005, 04:37 PM
Are you lookiking for the steyr ssg stock or the sako ssg stock?????????????

Rohann
01-25-2005, 12:10 AM
Thanks for the info.
Beretta: "Put this much money into a Savage"? I'm not putting that much money into it. Sig SSG's are about $3200 (as I found them) and are not something you could find very easily (here anyway). I don't plan to spend thousands of dollars on a Savage; I think all I'll have to spend will be about $1600 max. I want to order in a Savage with a Sig SSG-3000 stock; not a Sako or a Steyr. Steyr's SSG stocks don't have the adjustable cheekpiece, etc., and just aren't the ones I'm looking for. Look at previous posts for pictures of the stock; I'm looking for the solid stock, not hollow.
For accesories, etc., I plan to put on a scope, bipod, SSG stock, custom flip covers, etc. and I don't think this will cost nearly as much as an SSG-3000. I don't know about this so please correct me if I'm wrong, but SSG-3000's aren't as accurate as Savages as they don't have as good a barrel, the barrel is shorter and thinner.

Also, (for convenience and to base off the SSG) I'm thinkinng of putting QD scope mounts on. How reliable/rugged are these?
Please reply soon
Thanks,
-Rohann

45-70 Rifleman
01-26-2005, 11:29 AM
It seems to me that the whole thought process about this Mil vs LE rifle is working backwards. Any serious consideration of a sniper rifle needs to start with an analysis of the mission/purpose, requirements, conditions, and constraints.

As a simplified example, let's consider that the purpose was to neurtralize sentries around a guarded facility prior to a hostage rescue, and it required shooting at a range of 100-200 meters with stealth (without large muzzle flash or sound), under conditions of darkness in urban terrain, and the weapon had to be hidden under a jacket until ready to employ Then you might choose a short rifle with a locking bolt system that fired a heavy subsonic round, had a removable suppressor, and was fitted with both IR and II (image intensifier) sights.

Another situation might call for a very heavy .50 caliber with long range capabilities that fired an incendiary round and would be operated by a left-handed shooter. Or perhaps a weapon that must also have some sniper and assault rifle capabilites is needed, like the M-21 the military has rediscovered.

Most of the time when someone says "sniper rifle" we think of a bulky black rifle shooting something like 7.62 NATO out a long, heavy barrel and scoped with a Mil-Dot Leupold. Such rifles are general purpose rifles chosen for a variety of situations where some type of long range capability is needed against personel and light materiel. But even when determining what rifle to use as a general purpose rifle, both law enforcement and military agencies examine the mission/purpose, requirements, conditions, and constraints. Will it be carried in a trunk? Will it be dragged behind the shooter through brush? Does it need Infrared capabilities? Is accuracy more important than penetration and, if so, how accurate at what distance and how much penetration in what type of material? Must it be capable of rapid fire and large capacity with quick change magazines or will a single shot work? Is this rifle just for fun and games, will a hostage's life depend on it hitting the hostage taker in the cerebellum, or will it be used for delivering harasment and interdiction against an enemy?

Once you identify the mission/purpose, requirements, conditions, and constraints - without yet discussing caliber, manufacturer, or action type - then you can start to examine what equipment will meet the need.

So now I ask, what are your mission/purpose, requirements, conditions, and constraints?

Rohann
01-26-2005, 07:41 PM
Well said, you have a good point. Okay here it is:
-Mission/Purpose: Medium-Large game hunting (not it's main purpose), target rifle, all-around fun rifle. Also, I have always dreamed of putting together such a rifle, and this seems to be a good opportunity to do so. I plan on building this rifle over time; adding to as I go. I want this rifle to be "good enough" for "sniping".
-Requirements: This is a fairly ambitious project, and please tell me if it is too ambitious or unrealistic, but: I want a rugged, durable, dependable, accurate rifle (hence the comparison between LE and Military rifles). I want this rifle to be "Military": Durable, adaptable, reliable, but I also want it to be "Law-Enforcement": Pin-point accurate, reliable, precise.
-Conditions: Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by conditions.
-Constraints: I do not want to spend a rediculous amount of money on this rifle, but I won't let money get in the way of building this rifle (to a certain extent); I would rather wait longer and work harder than to get something that isn't what I was looking for.

Hope this helps,
-Rohann

45-70 Rifleman
01-26-2005, 11:54 PM
By "Conditions" I was refering to the conditions you would be using this in and subjecting it to. Since I see that you are in B.C., I would offer that you may be using this in rain and fog often, snow occasionally, and milder weather the rest of the time. Temperatures, I am guessing would range from mild to sub-freezing. Because you suggest it will be used for hunting, target shooting, and fun stuff then you probably will not be using it at night and in darkness. I also guess this will be used only outdoors and not indoors. I believe that much of B.C. is mountainous and heavily wooded but that you may be hunting in areas cleared for timber. These areas may have downed logs, stumps, and first through fifth year growth that make it difficult to traverse. You may end up knocking the rifle about and it may even get an occassional drop with you when you stumble and fall. Farmed and cleared areas might afford long shots, rich evergreen forests may offer shots to 100 yards if you can find an opening, stands of alder and maple might do the same after the leaves have fallen, and logged areas could offer long shots accross draws and ridge lines. I don't know which of these areas apply to your situation but I think we can rule out large barren flat or rocky areas and desert or urban terrain. It's your home range and your call though. I am assuming, too, that it doesn't need to sustain a high rate of fire over an extended period of time and that you will not be subjecting it to the high temperatures and stresses such usage would place upon it. I will assume that it will not ride in a scabbard on horse or ATV but that you will be the primary means of transporting it. I could be wrong. It's just conjecture. We could examine the conditions further but I think you get the point.

Rohann
01-27-2005, 12:27 AM
Actually, you got everything almost 100%. The terrain you described is very accurate, and your listed purposes will be the main idea of the rifle. At times, it might sustain a high rate of fire (when target shooting or fun shooting), but I don't think it will do so very often.

-Rohann

P.S: Can anyone help me out with the stock idea/identification?

45-70 Rifleman
01-27-2005, 12:41 AM
By high rate of fire I don't mean five rounds as fast as you can shoot them through a bolt action rifle and then a long period of cool down. That's easy for a good rifle to withstand. By high rate of fire I mean firing at a rate of 10 rounds in one minute or more than 20 rounds in 10 minutes. If you are going to do either or both of those on a regular basis then it will drastically change the characteristics of the rifle you will need.

Rohann
01-27-2005, 12:49 AM
Oh I very much doubt I will be doing that often. I take a lot of time with my shots and I try to be precise (especially with a rifle such as this), so I doubt I will be doing that.

-Rohann

Rohann
01-29-2005, 06:06 PM
In regard to a previous response: You got the conditions right. I'm looking for a rifle/stock/scope that can take a beating and that will withstand moderate weather conditions (a low of about -12 degrees celcius). Recommendations?

-Rohann

45-70 Rifleman
01-29-2005, 08:08 PM
Well now you examine what you came up with and produce a shopping list, as it were.

First you need to decide on the caliber/cartridge. Everything else depends on this. You need a highly accurate hunting rifle that can also be used for "all-around fun". I took your "good enough for sniping" to equate to accuracy because you are not planning to be a sniper with this arm. It must shoot a caliber suitable for "medium to large game" but it still needs to be "fun" and inheritantly accurate. Because you said large game I suggest that a .30 caliber should be the minimum and you will start to lose the "fun" aspect quickly after going larger than .338 caliber. I would have included smaller calibers if you had said only medium game. The 7mm magnums can take large game but some people argue as to the effectiveness of them on large game - your call. I think you should go with a cartridge that is widely available. You can always reload it but reloading won't have to be your primary means of obtaining ammunition. Some cartridges you might consider are .308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 300 Win Short Mag, 300 Wby Mag, 300 Rem Short Ultra Mag, 300 Rem Ultra Mag, 338 Win Mag. There are the Lapua, Lazzeroni, Dakota, and A-Square cartridges but those are proprietary and pretty potent. Also, there are the 8mm Remington, 6x68, and 6x64 but they are not widely available in BC. Then too, you have the big 338 magnums which, I think, would push it out of the fun catagory and are expensive to shoot.

This has to be your decision because personal preference will win out any argument about guns and cartridges. There are just too many to choose from that can get the job done. However, if it were my rifle, I would narrow it down to the .308 or one of the short .30 magnums. The .308 is very accurate, recoils little so you can shoot it all day, is inexpensive, and has proven itself on the gamefields, in matches, and as a general purpose utilitarian rifle round. The 300 WSM and RSUM are accurate, a little better suited to bigger game than the .308, and have a flatter trajectory for long range shooting. All three cartidges are suitable for a short actioned rifle. This is important if you are going to be carrying this rifle around a lot because you can save a little weight and length by using a short action. Short actions also tend to be a little stiffer and are better for building accurate rifles, all else considered equal.

Again, though, cartridge choice is your preference. Have you decided on the cartridge?

Rohann
01-30-2005, 12:29 AM
.308 for sure. I made up my mind about that quite a while ago; I researched and researched and picked the .308 over the .30-06 (after much thought). There is a ton of MilSurp ammo so shooting won't be too expensive, the cartridge is inheritantly accurate, and in my opinion, it's an all around good cartridge.

-Rohann

45-70 Rifleman
01-30-2005, 10:50 AM
Okay - .308 it is.
Next you need to decide on an action for your .308. First part of this is pretty easy. Is it to be semi-auto, bolt action repeater, or single-shot?

I think you will rule out a single shot. Not as much fun factor (for me that is), and for hunting you will generally want to have the ability for a second shot. Just for the record, though, I will say that my favorite HUNTING arm is my Winchester 101 with a 12 gauge shotgun over a 7x65R rifle - two single shots. Also, with single shots it is more difficult to shoot a target string accurately. I am not saying that single shots are not accurate, quite the contrary. There are some exceptionally accurate single shots that are specially designed for long range target shooting. However, with a single shot rifle you will have to break away from the firing position to reload. It makes it harder to shoot a consistent string if you do this and it takes more time. I don't think a single shot would meet your general purpose requirement either.

Bolt action repeaters are a likely choice. They are very versatile, can be extremely accurate, are probably the most common hunting arms, and there are many to choose from. You can get them with removable magazines for added versatility. For example, you can have one magazine loaded with cartridges for hunting within 200 yards and another for hunting beyond 200 yards. You get the picture, I'm sure. A bolt action rifle is very simple in design so it is easy to repair, less likely to need repair, and easy to disassemble and clean.

The versatility of semi-autos is often underestimated. They can be very accurate, durable, easy to carry, and can be loaded with a five round magazine for hunting and a larger magazine for fun and "general purpose". There are many matches where semi-autos rule, some of them involving long range shooting. However, the designs are complex and they are more prone to malfunction than a bolt action rifle. They can get pretty dirty and they take some work to clean properly and thoroughly. If I could only have one rifle, it would be an AR-10 or an AR-15. But that's me and is probably prejudiced because of the familiarity I gained firing truckloads of ammo through such weapons and from shooting, carrying, and living with, M-16s and their variants for 26 years. Your preferences may run differently. I am not familiar with the laws in BC but that alone may rule out any suitable, accurate, semi-auto.


My guess is that you have already decided on the bolt action repeater for your rifle. If so, have you given thought to whether or not it should have a removable magazine?

Rohann
01-30-2005, 08:04 PM
Bolt action, integral magzine (top loading), heavy barrelled, synthetic stock.

-Rohann

45-70 Rifleman
01-30-2005, 08:18 PM
The next PALMA Trophy Match will be conducted in Connaught Ranges, Ottawa, Canada in July, 2007. The PALMA Match will be held at the same time that Canada holds its National Rifle Matches. Also, along with the PALMA Trophy Team Match will be the World Long Range Rifle Individual Championships. The Palma course of fire is 15 shots at 800 yards, 15 shots at 900 yards, and 15 shots at 1000 yards. Unlimited sighters precede the 800-yard stage and the 900 and 1000-yard stages are allowed two sighters.

You should take a look at some of the rifles used for these for some ideas. I am not suggesting you build a Palma rifle. What I am suggesting is that by looking at these you can pick up some info that may apply to your requirement. Palma shooters are very serious about the sport and they use the best components.

http://www.michrpa.com/palma_primer.htm

Rohann
01-31-2005, 12:57 PM
Whoa that would be really fun to do, though I'm nowhere near being able to shoot at 600 yards yet, let alone getting to Ottawa.
I would like to make a rifle slightly like the "any" rifle, with a heavy target barrel etc.
My eye is set on the Savage 10FP, but I'm not sure how far I'd be able to go with it. Apparently you can do much more with a Rem700 action, but would you recommend buying a Remington 700 ADL or BDL instead of the 10FP? I don't think it's a good idea, because yes, the Remington would be more customizable, but I would have to put a few thousand dollars into it before I could get it shooting like the Savage, so I'm not sure if it's worth it because you can still put custom barrels, stocks, and probably upgrade the action with a Savage.

-Rohann

Marlin917VS
01-31-2005, 04:25 PM
It is true that it might not shoot as good at first, but in the long run I think the remington 700 would be a better choice. Like already stated, there are a bunch of options for it, and if you want to uprade over time in a couple of years I bet you could get it shooting better than the savage, and have a nicer rifle too. For example, here is one of the remington varmint rifles.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/700vsf.htm

You would have a nice rifle to use for both targets and whatever animals you want to use it on, and you can upgrade over time. The difference in accuracy would most likely be very small at the beginning, but the remington would probably get a lot better after some modifications later. I may be wrong but I doubt you are going to use this in any type of benchrest or similar competition right after you get it, so it's not going to matter if its as accurate right out of the box as the savage. Don't get me wrong, I love savage, I have a savage in 308 that I use for deer and shooting groups at the range, but I think the remington would be better in the long run. Also, the remington I have the link to already has a good stock, HS precision i think, and you wouldn't have to worry about upgrading that for a long time, if at all. Thats all I had to say, do what you want. Either way you will get a nice rifle. Later

Rohann
01-31-2005, 08:07 PM
Thanks for the input, but lets look at what I will need to upgrade in order to get a Remington 700 ADL (same price as a 10FP LE) shooting as well as the Savage:
-New barrel (about $600)
-New trigger (about $50)
So I will have to pay over a thousand dollars to get a Remington shooting as well as the 10FP, and that's still without a scope, sling, bipod, or any such thing.

-Rohann

azhdryder
01-31-2005, 11:28 PM
Rohan, you are comparing apples to oranges. The adl is the low end remington, the savage 10fp le is the "high" (LOL) end of the savage line. I shoot a stock( absolutely unmodified ) Rem M700 PSS in .308. Out of the box, Leupold MK4 mounts and 3.5x10x40 MK4M3 Mil-dot scope. It shoots 1/2 moa at any range I can hold it steady at to 600+ yds. There is NO comparison here. Its like comparing a BSA scope with Mil-dot ret to the Leupold. Ya gotta be kidding

Price wise, look around. I got my M700 for less than $700 US. New. Factory trigger was execllent, but I do admit not an accutrigger. I live with it and learn my rifle instead of replacing practice with technology.

The Savage guns shoot, dont get me wrong, but there are more advantages than price here. Remingtons are like Glocks, everybody has heard of them breaking down, but can you find me anyone who has actually seen it happen other than through gross abuse or neglect?

Just my take on the differences

Rohann
02-01-2005, 12:27 AM
Thanks for the input. It's the fact that a Remington 700 ADL new (here) costs as much as a Savage 10FP (which I don't understand, though it might be the same deal as my Savage .22 over the Ruger 10/22. Ruger: very common, over-priced, needs some work to make it shoot accurately. Savage: Not so common. Underpriced, shoots wonderfully [.4 inches benchrest at 50 yards].
A Remington 700 PSS, for one thing, I wouldn't be able to find without much work, and it would cost well over a thousand dollars. Just doesn't seem worth the money. What can you upgrade more on a Remington over a Savage? Anything that will actually affect accuracy in the end?
How much did the PSS cost you?

-Rohann

P.S: It sounds more like buying a Remington will replace practice with technology. For $700,I get an accurate, reliable rifle with one of the best triggers on the market, instead of paying $700 for a mediocre rifle that will need much work to get it shooting like the Savage. Just doesn't make much sense to me.

45-70 Rifleman
02-01-2005, 12:36 AM
The Savage is a very nice weapon, especially for the money. It has more than acceptable accuracy in the factory configuration. However, everyone I have known that purchased the Savage for precision work ended up either replacing it or augmenting it. The biggest limiting factor against the Savage is that there just are not a lot of specialty components available to enhance or upgrade it.


The opposite is true for the Remington 700. The ADL, BDL, and Detachable magazine models all use the same reciever and trigger group. The ADL has a blind magazine. The BDL has the most common type of magazine found on bolt guns. It is hinged and opens at the bottom. The detachable magazine models are just that. They have a removable box magazine. You can change an ADL to a BDL and vice versa just by changing the stock and triggerguard assembly. Similarly, you can change to or from a removable magazine model. I've done it and it is a piece of cake. In my opinion, the strongest things the Remington 700 has going for it are the extremely short lock time, very nice trigger, and the ability to find all sorts of ways to upgrade and enhance the weapon at a reasonable price. If you wanted to go so far, you could even build your rifle on the Accuracy International Chassis System (AICS). There are many, many possibilities with the Remington.

Regarding the model 700 magazines, since the actions for all three styles is exactly the same, I think the advantages of the removable magazine should not be overlooked. It is very easy and quick to load and unload. You can carry multiple magazines with different types of ammunition and change quickly between them. You can get larger capacity magazines, handy in some types of competition. Loading from above means that if you have a scope you will be loading one round at a time. Without a scope, using iron sights, you could load quickly via a 5-round clip but you would have to modify the weapon and have it provisioned with the proper clip "lips". I would take the detachable magazine version any day.

There are many other actions. Most of them are either very expensive and semi-custom, or they are just not in the same league for accuracy potential that the model 700 is - unless you want to do a lot of customizing and accurizing. Since you are not really building a "sniper rifle" but are building a "precision rifle" I think your choice of the Remington 700 would be a sound one.

45-70 Rifleman
02-01-2005, 12:42 AM
Rohann]What can you upgrade more on a Remington over a Savage? Anything that will actually affect accuracy in the end?

Answer: Almost anything. Try building something like this on a Savage. It just isn't going to happen:

http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/m2000.htm

Rohann
02-02-2005, 12:42 PM
I was talking to azhdryder and I'm starting to think that I should rather go with a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic in .308, though I would really appreciate some info. What is the difference between this and the 700PSS? Is there much of a cost difference? I went to the VSF on their website and it said (0.0820-inch muzzle O.D.). What does this mean?
In all honesty, do you think that the Rem. would outshoot the Savage 10FP? All in all, is it a better rifle?
Also, do you know if you can get aftermarket Accutriggers?

Thanks,
-Rohann

Marlin917VS
02-02-2005, 03:38 PM
You can't get the Accutrigger, thats only a savage thing, but there are a lot of triggers out there that are a lot beter that you can get for it. Go to http://riflebasix.com/ , they make nice trigger. I got one from them for my marlin 17hmr and it's a great trigger. Also very good service. My dad ordered it for a christmas present, and he called and the guy was out somewhere with people, and he just got the info and sent the trigger the next day, and said to send a check after we got the trigger. I forget the name of the guy, but it's a great company to deal with. They have 4 different triggers for the remington 700.
L-1: 1.5 lbs. to 3 lbs. - $106.95
LV-1: 8 oz. to 1.5 lbs. - $117.95
L-3: 2 oz. to 6 oz. - $138.95
ERV-3: 4 oz. to 1.25 lbs. - $138.95


I don't know which rifle would shoot better out of the box, I don't have both to compare, but it won't be a big difference between the two in accuracy. I would rather get the remington, they are more solidly built. Much smoother action and also accurate. With the remington you mentioned you could probably keep it completely stock except for a new trigger and have a very accurate, solid rifle. Then as you get older and get more money you can upgrade other things as you need. Have fun. Later

Marlin917VS
02-02-2005, 03:42 PM
I think that the (0.0820-inch muzzle O.D.) is a miss print, and is supposed to be 0.820-inch. It would be the outside diameter of the barrel at the muzzle. I could be wrong though. Later

beretta96
02-15-2005, 09:40 PM
Ihave been away for a while so Im playing catch up. The statment that a svage is more accurate than a sako. You have not been around the block very long have you. I own two sako 75s both are syntetic sporter weights. Both rifles shoot around 3/4 with about anything i can push through the tube. I loaded some 7-08 loads for my weatherby and forgot I seated the bullet long, when I shot them in my sako and they still grouped less than an inch at 100yds. Sako in my opinion makes the best factory barrel out there. I say factory because weatherby barrels may shoot better but kreiger makes them. I understand a lot of guys love there savage rifles, but a savage is not even in the same dimension as a ssg-3000. You have to compare apples to apples dude, not rotten apples to gold.

beretta96
02-15-2005, 10:04 PM
700 vs. 10fp---- I have a 700 vls 223 my friend also has one. His brother bought a savage heavy barrel 223. My friend and I bought the gun for 529usd, had the trigger smithed to about 2 1/4lbs 25usd, broke in the gun free and floated the barrel free. HIs brother bought the savage 499 broke it in free and we started shooting groups. Our 700 consistantly shot better than his savge. We had about 50usd more than him in our guns and out of the box they shot better. We also killed more dogs on our trip to SD than him at longer ranges. Another point I just picked up a rifle for a friend of mine it was a sav 110 syn in 270. It was in fair shape and the price, $250usd! Any remington 700 no matter the condition will cost around 400. cracked stock bad barrel and all. The action alone is worth the money. Check around and see if you can prove me wrong. Rilfe builders will pay to get the action and people know this so thats the reason. THe two guns off the shelf cost the same, but when i shoot out the barrel and break the stock I still can get a fair price for mine. A svage with a bad barrel ain't worth the steel its forged from.