As some of you may recall, using the 8mm SLT I missed a shot at a caribou last year and a shot at a moose this year. The caribou was only about 75 yd off, and the moose only about 150. The shot at the caribou was taken off-hand in about a 35 mph cross-wind, but the moose was from a very steady rest. When I missed the caribou, I attributed it to "operator error" and didn't check the 'scope. When I missed the moose, I began to question the 'scope settings. When I finally checked the 'scope, I found it was off about 5 FEET at 100 yd. "It was the 'scope's fault" is small consolation for two misses. That rifle is now in pieces as I decided to complete its cosmetic finishing.

As some of you will also recall, I have been trying to get MY ANVBs (Ain't No Varmint Bullet), to shoot straight and not having too much success there. Most of the problem was attributed to the 3-D-printed "plastic" tips I was using. (See here http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16677 and here http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16841for the "rest of the story".)

As some of you will also recall, I made a rifle chambered for the .375x284 Win wildcat. Also having a devil of a time getting THAT rifle to shoot straight. (See here http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13951. I KNOW it says ".375" in that thread and I'm saying .358 here. THAT'S WHY IT WASN'T SHOOTING STRAIGHT! I'll explain in another thread.)

It is still moose and caribou season, and I need to get out some more after each of them. Most importantly, I need a rifle that I can trust to hit where I aim it. What I WANT is:
1) Get the ANVB shooting straight, or give it up,
2) Get the .358 Steyr shooting straight,
3) Get SOME rifle I own shooting straight so I can hit the game I am shooting at!

With those "wants" in mind, I loaded up 35 rounds of 8x57:
6 - with 180-grian Nosler Ballistic Tips,
6 - with some 150-grain flat-based bullet. It was a "bulk" buy so I don't know who the manufacturer is.
8 - with 125-grain Hornady Spitzers
12- ANVBs with "pointy" tips clipped off to about a mm in diameter, and
3 - ANVBs with new "round" tips.
I also had 5 milsurp rounds for getting the 'scope "on paper" at short range.

18 rounds of .358x376 Steyr:
6 - with 200-grian Hornady FTXs,
6 - with SPeer 220-grain Flat Tips, and
6 - with 225 grain Accubonds.

I have several boxes of .338 Win Mag sitting "at the ready" with proven loads for the 225-grain Hornady Spitzer. I grabbed a box of 20.

I went to the range with the intent of:
1) Finding SOME bullet that would shoot straight in the 8x57, be it ANVB, Ballistic Tip or "plain ol' " spitzer.
2) Getting the .358x376 Steyr FIGURED OUT! and,
3) Making sure the old faithful .338 Win Mag was still "on".

Using QuickLOAD, I calculated the range at which a bullet shot from each rifle would FIRST cross the line of sight in its trajectory's arc. With the bullets in question, all of them first crossed between 32 and 34 yd from the muzzle. I set the targets at 34 yd to make sure all the rifles were "on paper". Here is precisely how the targets were oriented:



I used the lower target for the 34-yard shots, and the upper target for the 100 yd shots. I brought the new MagnetoSpeed chrony, of course.

I started with the .358 Steyr and the 220-grain Flat Point. After bore-sighting, the first shot was the one you see in the lower left bullseye! I didn't see a need to shoot again at 34 y, as it was clearly "on paper". :D MV was a bit anemic at 2257 f/s though. Here is a close-up of the target:


Next was the .338 WM. It wasn't EXACTLY "on" so I decided to adjust the 'scope a "tad". Moved it in the wrong direction. :frown Hence the three holes you see above and right of the .358 hole.:frown The last one is the one at 12 o'clock. Oh yeah, MV averaged 2657 with spread of 8f/s. :D

Finally to the 8x57. I started of course with bore-sighting, then fired the milsurp rounds. On the target, they range from lower right to upper left! Part of the problem was that I moved the 'scope wrong AGAIN. :frown And part of it was that they just shot really crappy! MV averaged 2610 with a standard deviation of 26 f/s. It's Turkish stuff made in 1949. I THINK it might have been made for use in 8mm machine guns.

I decided to try some of the Hornady 125s. Those are some of the holes you see in the center. Some of the holes are from the milsurp stuff and one is an ANVB. Average MV for the Hornady 125s was 3097 f/s with 23 f/s standard deviation.

Not satisfied with that, I decided to shoot some of the clipped ANVBs to make sure that I was "on paper" when I went out to 100 yd. Those are the ones you see 'around' the upper right bulls-eye. Part of the spread you see is me moving the 'scope wrong AGAIN! :frown (Some serious swearing going on about that time. My only excuse is that I was at the public shooting range that I don't like A LOT, and I was rushing myself a little bit. But sheesh, you'd think I'd learn after the SECOND time!) The ANVBs weighed between 121 and 124 grains. Their average MV was 3121 with a SD of 17 f/s.

I moved the target out to 100 yd.

Since I was interested in more than just group size (precision), some of the "shooting around" you see is due to getting the 'scope adjusted to be ACCURATE - which is hit WHERE you AIM, NOT small groups. Here are close-ups for each of the individual bullets with regard to PRECISION and without regard to ACCURACY.

ANVB - "Round" tip


8x57 Nosler 180-grain Ballistic Tips

VERY pleased with these! Average MV 2778, SD = 13 f/s. DEFINITELY "THE" bullet for the 8x57 Remington if I don't use the ANVB.

.338 Win Mag - Only two shots because why waste ammo for a rifle that I know shoots really straight.


.358 Steyr - 200-grain FTX

The three holes you see marked "Red Tip" (FTXs are Hornady's rubber "flex" tips). I LIKE IT! Especially considering how wildly this rifle shot with .375 caliber bullets.

.358 Steyr - 220 Speer Flat Tips

Only had two bullets left after trying to get ACCURATE.

.358 Steyr - 225-grain Accubond.

The two holes marked "AB". Only two holes because as I looked at the holes through the scope from the bench they appeared to be key-holed. I noticed it on the first shot, and when it appeared to be the same for the second, I stopped shooting. No need to waste bullets on a key-holing load. When I got to the target butt it was clear that it had not key-holed. At that point, I was finished shooting and was just retrieving targets.

So...

8x57 Remington
I am "satisfied" with the round-tipped ANVB. I like the 3120-ish MV and something just over MOA for 100-yd precision. I have NO concerns about terminal performance. Given the printed tips, maybe that "NO conerns" is unwarranted, but I don't think so.

I am 'tickled pink' with the 180-grain Ballistic Tip. Very good precision (0.7"x0.5") and very good MV.

The "clipped" tipped ANVBs shot "ok" - about 1.5-ish MOA - but it's a moot point, because I will be using the "round" nosed ones from now on. MV were nice at over 3120 f/s and reasonably consistent.

The Hornady 125s AND the 150s are a DISASTER. I couldn't keep them on the target FRAME at 100 yd. I don't know what might be the problem, but both are out of ALL consideration for the Remington 8x57.
(8x57 goes on caribou hunt with ANVB and 180 BT)

.338 Win Mag
What's to say. It has always shot well, and it still is.
(Stays home. Tough call, but I was confident in both 8x57 and .358 Steyr)

.358 Steyr (Ignoring the elephant in the room for the moment...)
Very happy with the 200-grain FTX. That bullet shoots straight in that rifle. That fact that the rifle shoots straight is a BIG relief.

.220-grain Flat Point. I like it. It shoots straight. It's got a poor BC of .286, so it doesn't really compete well with the FTX even though it shoots pretty straight.

225-grain Accubond. Frankly, pretty disappointing because of how poorly it shot. I doubt I could keep it below 1.5 MOA at BEST. Of course, since the rifle is KNOWN to shoot straight, I suspect that all that is needed is some dedicated load work-up. For now, the Accubond is "out".
(.358 Steyr goes on caribou hunt with 180 FTxs and 220 Speers.)

Paul

Did Midway finally make some sort of settlement about the mismarked barrel?

Good to see some progress.

Don - never heard a single word back.

WRT 'progress' - it seems a bit like one step forward and two steps back. The 8mm SLT is in pieces and the .358xWHATEVER is in "purgatory" while I figure out whether to use the 376 Steyr case or the .284 Win case. I've decided that if I go with the .284 case, I will rechamber. I need to get the 8mm SST past the test-firing stage of manufacture, which means a new barrel and rechambering.

The real progress is the Nosler 180 BT in the Model 700 Classic. That rifle could be chosen to hunt with if it shoots that bullet consistently that well. It shoots the ANVB well enough, and at over 3100 f/s, that's a good combination.

Paul

There's always the 7X300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  :grin:

I like the 180-200 grain bullet in the .358 Steyr. It's a lot like a .358 Win sounds like. Anything bigger than a 200 is a waste because you can't get it going fast enough to make the bullet "work". Save the 220's and bigger for the 35 Whelen types. By the by, the 220's and 225's I tried in my Whelen were a waste. It really only likes 250 grain Hornady spire points. Those don't really need to expand to kill an elk, but they must 'cause the exit hole is about the size of my thumb.

At the velocities we're talking with the .358 Steyr, seems like worrying about the BC is, well, silly? No 'fence, but it's not really a long range sniping machine. Mebbe 250-300 yards at most?

OOOOOOH A 358X284 OOOOH AAAAAAAH

75 yard moose shot, in the driveway. Oh if I could be so lucky.

RJ

I mis-stated the small .358 bullet's weight - the FTX. It's 200, not 180.

RJ - The .358 Steyr is bigger (has more case capacity) than the Whelen, and the missed moose was not in the driveway and not 75 yd.

I'm in a rush at the moment. I'll get back to this ASAP.

Paul

Oh . . . .so we're talkin' 35 Newton basically. In that case a 200 grain bullet is a way too small, but then you are going for Light For Caliber (LFC) 'Twas me, I'd go more tonnage, (bigger bullet, slower powder) but on that we agree to disagree.  :grin:

I was thinkin' of the bullwinkle you dumped a couple years ago.

RJ

OK, so let me clarify a few things.

I'm not particularly after LFC bullets for the .358, but I intend to try them. A .35 caliber hole is a .35 caliber hole. If I can make one precisely and with less recoil, I'm 'good with that'.

The 200-grain FTX shoots straighter than either of the other two bullets I tried, the 220 FN and the 225 AB. While the 220 is close in precision, it has a relatively poor BC. If it had a similar BC to the FTX, I would probably use it.

The 225 AB doesn't shoot straight with this load. If I take the time to get it to shoot as straight as the FTX, it will get "the nod" because it has a much better BC and therefore will carry more energy farther down range.

The bullwinkle that shot last year was taken with a .350 Rem Mag in a Remington 660 with open sights, using the same 220 FN mentioned above, at a range of about 35 paces. The bullet went in under the right eye and exited from the left side of the neck below the skull. I suspect that it didn't feel itself hitting the ground. I don't think the 200-grain FTX would have failed to have the same result, neither do I believe that a 250 would have killed it quicker because I don't know how it could have been killed quicker.

Generally stated, my view of the world is that once the "threshold of death" is achieved, all subsequent effort should be spent on precision and "comfort". With the Hogue "overmolded" stock and the heavy, 26" barrel, recoil with the 200-grain FTX is considerably less than that of the .338 WM with its 225-grain bullet.

My goal with the ANVB  was not for it to shoot from the 8x57, although I am glad that it does. What I want is for it to shoot from a 376 Steyr case in the "Steyr Short Throat". I wanted to "blood" the ANVB this Fall if I could and since the SST wasn't "ready for prime time", I decided to try to get it to work in the Remington. This Model 700 in 8x57 has a LONG throat just like all the other factory 8x57 rifles made in this country. So getting something on the order of 1.5 MOA out of it with the ANVB was a pleasant surprise. Equally surprising was how VERY POORLY the Hornady 125 shot from the same rifle. I have some ideas about why, but they'll have to wait for verification. What I REALLY NEED to do, is chamber another 8mm barrel with a short throat and install that barrel on an action and get a working SST in hand.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;127869I mis-stated the small .358 bullet's weight - the FTX. It's 200, not 180.
 
Paul

I use that bullet in my 35 Rem, seems to do the trick splendidly on deer at 1800 fps
 
You know how I feel about the 130gr Speer .308, currious as to how the swaging will affect it's performance, if at all.  Also, I guess you noticed it is now called a "varmint" bullet though the same exact bullet #2005, was a medium game bullet a couple years ago....stupid marketing idiots and gunwriters somehow turned it into a varmint bullet.

QuoteI guess you noticed it is now called a "varmint" bullet though the same  exact bullet #2005, was a medium game bullet a couple years ago

Yes indeed I did. I believe this is all a general "trend" to "clean up" the 'sport' (ptooey) of hunting. In other words, make it more "palatable" to the haters by having "standards" that some self-appointed "experts" impose on everyone in the name of "ethics". Nowadays, EVERY HP bullet is, by definition of the "experts", a "varmint" bullet. That's precisely why I named my bullet the "Ain't No Varmint Bullet".

I would imagine that from a blind or in close cover, the .35 Rem with the FTX is a real deer 'hammer'. Have you ever recovered one?

Paul

Quote from: gitano;127879Have you ever recovered one?

Paul

T'would be interesting to see one if you have. I've never recovered (or seen any) from either the (200 grain Hornady rn's) from the .358 Win or 250 grain Hornady spire points from the 35 Whelen from either elk or deer.

RJ

RJ, I think the Moose in the Hoose was actually at about 50 feet and met its well deserved end with a 660 in .350 Mag., a .35 Whelen in mag clothes.

I should note that long ago when I first got my hands on the first printed tips, Jamie.270 mentioned that it might be that the imprecision of the ANVB might be due to the sharp point "catching" the wind. While I didn't dismiss that comment without consideration, I wasn't sure it was the problem. I'm still not SURE the sharp point is a problem, but it can't be ruled out, hence the "Mod I" with the 1mm radius on the tip.

Paul